Air removal without a vent

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Old 04-03-16, 08:38 AM
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Air removal without a vent

Hi guys,

Looking for some input-

I recently had my hydronic boiler replaced. The plumber didn't include any air removal device stating "they only cause trouble down the road". However, I do have some air in the pipes that he said would distill out on its own.

Is this true? It's been a month now and not really any better.

Thanks
 
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Old 04-03-16, 10:47 AM
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Depends on what type expansion tank you have on your system. Can you take pics?
 
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Old 04-03-16, 12:47 PM
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It's an Amtrol Extrol #30 expansion tank.

Other details- 140k btu boiler. Temp set at 180 degrees and pressure oddly stays fairly constant at 25psi (should be around 15ish from my understanding). He said that's okay as well...

I can provide pics a little later if still needed.
 
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Old 04-03-16, 01:00 PM
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Some boilers are manufactured in a manner that makes them the air eliminator. You do need the air vent no matter what.

Yes, please provide some pictures of the boiler installation. Make certain to have well lit and in focus pictures and from far enough back to allow us to see the way the different parts are interconnected. High definition pictures on a photo hosting site are preferred over embedded pictures.
 
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Old 04-03-16, 02:09 PM
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So no matter what an air vent is needed? Hopefully the plumber that is against air vents and has not wanted to come back to fix the problem will be willing to install one.

I have some shared pictures on this link. Not the best camera but hopefully it works out. Let me know if I need to get a better shot of anything-

Shared pictures
 
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Old 04-03-16, 03:37 PM
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The guy does nice pipework but he should be shot for several other things. Most glaring is the mounting of the circulating pump on the return side of the boiler AND placing it in a totally inaccessible location. When the time comes to replace that pump (and it will come eventually) it looks as if it will be necessary to move the entire boiler.

Second item (or is it the third?) is mounting the expansion tank upside down, so high up and with no supports. While the tank will work in any orientation it is best when installed with the system connection on top. The way it is makes it difficult to test if the diaphragm has ruptured and also will be a real pain to replace when necessary.

Third item is one I see on this forum all the time, the rat's nest of wires from the zone valves. There is plenty of room inside the wiring box to make all the connections and just have the thermostat and power/control cables exit the box. The holes in the boxes should have rubber grommets as well to protect the cables/wires.

Fourth item is the vent damper actuator should be mounted with the shaft horizontal.

Fifth item is there should not be a union in that gas piping at the ceiling.

There may be more, this is just from a cursory glance.

To answer your question, yes, this system should have an air eliminator and automatic vent installed.
 
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Old 04-03-16, 03:51 PM
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Yes thats a williamson aka weil mclain.. ( Your from NJ I can tell LOL)

At a minimum an air vent should be where the exp tank is and the water feed goes.. This is a built in air scoop thats in the boiler itself. This is a 1/2" port that is next to the boiler feed.

I also like to install one at the return line on a drop ell going back to the boiler. So two aav's at a min...

Your installer dont know what he is doing if air vents were not installed..

You see page 11 here shows vent at that port..

You need some type of air elimination or the air will never get out...



http://www.williamson-thermoflo.com/...GWA_Manual.pdf
 
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Old 04-03-16, 04:16 PM
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Wow, that's so disheartening to hear of all this.
The damper also has been noisy, which I assumed was due to the the way it was mounted. And yep, from NJ.

May I ask your opinions on how to address this with the plumber?

Thank you guys for the input. It's greatly appreciated.
 
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Old 04-03-16, 04:53 PM
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May I ask your opinions on how to address this with the plumber?
Ask him nicely if he will install per the manufactures recommendations. If he gives a hard time tell him your taking him to small claims court... be firm...
 
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Old 04-03-16, 05:35 PM
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I will take that approach. I know an air vent is needed per the manual. So that should be easy enough to get him to do add it. Just to better prep myself as I have never had to deal with a problem such as this, I do have a few concerns hopefully you guys can help with.

Looking at the manual, I am not certain how I can have any of the other points addressed. Any tips since he has insisted during the install "it's okay" to a couple of these points?

For the damper, on page 9 it says it can be installed vertically or horizontally as shown in manufacturers instruction. However, the diagram shows 2 different dampers- one placed vertical and one horizontal (which is the same as mine that he placed vertically).
I found a link to a possible install paper (for my part number effikal rvgp)- but it's not clear to me by either manuals as to whether I can prove to him it's incorrect.
http://www.completeplumbingsource.co...info-21645.pdf

Also, is 25psi okay?

Lastly, would having him address these warrant a new service fee?

Thanks
 
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Old 04-03-16, 06:07 PM
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You should have no sevice fee at all...

Dont pay anything.. be firm..


Damper is ok... dont worry about anything but getting air vents... All looks good IMO...
 
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Old 04-03-16, 07:50 PM
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All looks good IMO...
Mike, you need to clean your glasses!

How would you change out that circ pump? Do you REALLY think that rat's nest of wires from the zone valves "looks good"? What about the placement of the expansion tank balancing on that too long riser with no other support?

And that damper actuator...regardless of the instruction manual it is just plain wrong.
 
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Old 04-04-16, 08:19 AM
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One thing to do is verify the pressure gauge readings. A post by NJT explains how:http://www.doityourself.com/forum/bo...ure-gauge.html

There should be a way of venting at the high point of each zone or each radiator if they are higher than the common line.
 
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Old 04-04-16, 02:15 PM
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Mike, you need to clean your glasses!
LOL yeah but what is he to do. Go to small claims court?

Visual is one thing, but is the boiler functioning as it should is the question right?

Sure neater wiring is good practice.. A taco zone controller would of been a better option..

Aiming the gauge straight out instead of an angle as the installer has it would look better too.

And I am not sure why the expansion tank was pipied that high up either.. Probably to clear the flue.. The guy should of came off with a tee and a nipple and an ell and drop the tabk on the right side of the boiler..

yes the damper should sit right ontop of the draft hood. And if not enough pitch to the chimney they but a hole higher up in the chimney is what I would have done..

The OP is best off paying for a permit and getting the boiler inspected.. I can almost be certain no permit was pulled...
 
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Old 04-04-16, 02:36 PM
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I'll agree that much of what I complain about is piddling but shoving the boiler into that corner where there is no access to change out the pump is just criminal in my view.

When I was still working I had a couple of maintenance "plumbers" that would often do small jobs in the power plant. I had to constantly ride their rears to make their work look good as well as be functional. On the other hand I also had a couple of pipefitters doing new construction that I never had a problem with. These latter two were running new air piping and one of them came over to ask me to check their work. I told him, "Jim, I NEVER have to check YOUR work. I KNOW when you and Bob are working it will be done correctly." He liked that.
 
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Old 04-04-16, 03:49 PM
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In regards to a permit, non was pulled. I asked him to do so and when he showed up on the install day later in the week he told me he couldn't get a hold of the proper town employee and said he'll do it later (he is licensed). When I inquired some days later if he had the chance to do he basically shrugged it off.

I now think he didn't want it pulled because it may fail inspection but didn't want to say so. I am thinking to pull one now myself since I have paperwork for the install. That leads to a follow up question- what problem(s) can be thrown my way if it fails inspection that would be bad for me (as opposed to him fixing it)?

I am appreciating all input thus far.
 
  #17  
Old 04-07-16, 11:46 AM
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You might need a threatening letter from a lawyer. As for the air venting, there is no substitute for a air vent at the highest point of your system, mechanical one is good.
Sid
 
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Old 04-07-16, 01:47 PM
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That leads to a follow up question- what problem(s) can be thrown my way if it fails inspection that would be bad for me (as opposed to him fixing it)?

I am appreciating all input thus far.
No problems.. The installer must come back and fix the issues.. If not he can be reported to the board and have his licence suspended..

I would pull the permit and address all the issues stated here to the inspector..

Please let us know the outcome...
 
 

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