Would this mean bad fuel pump?

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  #1  
Old 04-20-16, 02:17 PM
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Would this mean bad fuel pump?

hi folks –

I have a New Yorker boiler with a Beckett AFG burner and the fuel pump is the Danfoss BFPH 071N1151. The primary on the burner tripped the reset button and I am finding that there is no fuel flow. I have at least 40 gallons in each tank.

I have a 2 tank setup with an oil filter between the 2 tanks with one pipe from the oil filter going to the burner about 20 feet away. I was negligent this year and did not change the oil filter, fuel filter on the pump, and the nozzle, something I have done every year till now.

So I figured the problem was just a very clogged up oil and/or pump fuel filter. I changed the filters and nozzle and then noticed there was no flow at all at the bleeder valve on the pump when I ran the burner. I tried 16 times running the burner about 20 seconds each time and not a drop of oil from the bleeder port.

I have a pressure gauge and found there is zero pressure at the pump pressure test port while running the burner. I have 2 different gauges and they both read the same thing. (I know how to test the pressure I’ve do so before with the same 2 gauges.)I can’t see anything that I could have done to cause zero pressure. Is that just telling me it’s just time for a new pump?

I didn’t remove the suction line and put the gauge there on the pump to test for suction. Also the fan turns by hand normally just like it always did.

One thing however is that I think I don’t have the faintest clue as to how oil flow really works. I have a gate valve at the output of each tank. With the oil filter canister removed and the left gate valve open and the right closed, all I see is a very fast drip at the oil filter head. I thought I would see a really fast stream. Maybe these gate valves are bad – but I haven’t had any problems up till now. I don’t see how that would affect pump pressure anyway – but seems strange to me anyway.

Is it possible to have an extremely poor flow through the gate valves and possibly still operate and not know it? I don’t know how many problems I have here- lol.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated!
 
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  #2  
Old 04-20-16, 02:36 PM
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Why not remove line after one of the gates at the tank? If slow with sludge you could poke it with a wire or something. Should have a good flow.
 
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Old 04-20-16, 03:52 PM
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guyold thanks. Sometimes it just pays to write this stuff down. I was thinking about this after my post and figured this could just be an oil flow problem as you suggest. I was making the assumption you should get a good pressure reading at the pump even without an oil flow Ė but I can see that could be flat out wrong.

Iíll remove one of the lines tomorrow and see what I get. When I turn the gate valves it feels like they are doing nothing and the handle is mostly spinning free. Maybe what happened is when I turned off the oil flow to change the filters, the valves really havenít opened back up.

Iíll play with it tomorrow. I think what you say makes sense there should be a good flow. Thanks for your input!
 
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Old 04-20-16, 05:39 PM
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Yes you should feel a full stop at wide open. Bet it is the tank that fills first? Don't know how your laid out. I take it there is a equalizer line after the tank valves. Tee to filter.Maybe new valve time, good luck.
 
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Old 04-20-16, 05:54 PM
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The fuel pump MUST have oil at the suction in order to build any pressure.
 
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Old 04-21-16, 06:35 AM
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Thanks much Furd. That certainly makes sense. Yes Ė how could you get pressure with no oil, my bad. That helps a lot. So now I can just concentrate on the oil flow problem and things make much more sense.

Thanks again!
 
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Old 04-21-16, 12:19 PM
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Diagnosing this would be easier if there was a vacuum gauge between the oil filter and pump.

With today's small nozzle sizes a gauge is even more important to have. I think every oil burner should have one but installers typically do not spend $20 for a gauge and tee.

A gauge is also an indication of oil filter status. When it goes over 15 to 17 it should be changed. Oil deliveries are like a lottery and it does not take much to clog the filter or nozzle. Last year after changing filters gauge was still high. Turned out line from tank was clogging up.

Also installing a glycerin filled pressure gauge on the pump high side is another good $20 investment.
 
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Old 04-21-16, 03:36 PM
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Just reread where you said both valves acted the same, zoesdad. Seems unlikely both would fail at the same time. They do have a long throw though. Hope you made out ok.
 
  #9  
Old 04-22-16, 09:35 AM
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hi guys Ė

Thanks guys for all your help. I read all the posts.

Iíll try to explain briefly what I have, but for some reason I can never really be brief, but I try - lol.

I have that type setup which is no longer allowed (I think). See pic: two tanks, with a cross-over pipe on the top. The fill is on the left tank (LT) and the vent on the right tank (RT). Gauge on the right tank.

There is a piping connecting the two tank bottoms with a tee that feeds the oil filter. There is a gate valve on the output of each tank. (The valves have some rector seal on them. There were some very slow drips from the handle area. Hope that didnít screw up anything)

The pipe from the oil filter runs down the bottom of the basement wall about 23 feet and then turns on a 90 and comes up to the burner as shown in the pic.
I keep the 2 gate valves open and after an oil delivery within about 24 hours the levels in the 2 tanks are about the same (I stick test them).I never have more than 250 gals total in the tanks together.

The primary on the burner tripped recently and I figured itís because the oil filter, fuel/filter and nozzle might be dirty because this is the first year I got lazy and did no maintenance Ė and thus I paid the penalty and got burnt.

Changed the nozzle and filters but could not prime. I knew I had 10 inches oil in the left tank (via stick test) and assumed the same in the right tank, even though the gauge read 0. I know the gauge is very inaccurate at the low end.

I figured maybe the valves did not open properly after I changed the filters and reopened them.

I closed both valves and removed the canister from the oil filter. I opened the left valve slowly and saw only a fast drip from the oil filter head. I measured the drip at 0.33 gals/hour. I know I have 10 inches oil in the left tank. You can close the valve Ė but open only produces 0.33 gals/hour.

I stick tested the right tank and was surprised to see only an inch of oil. So it seems for some reason the oil flow stopped from the left tank and thus the right tank was used up. So I got 18 gals diesel (which Iíve used before) and dumped it into the right tank with the RT valve closed and the LT valve closed.

I stick tested the right tank and measured 6 inches which I believe from my chart is correct for about 18 gallons.

I removed the oil filter canister and opened the RT valve and observed a stream of oil flowing out of the oil filter head, so I assumed I had a good oil flow and thus should be in business.

Went back to the burner and retried many times to prime Ė but no luck.

I donít think I really understand this oil flow business very well Ėlol. I thought gravity would cause the oil to eventually make it to the pump, whether or not the pump was running. But I guess with air in the line that canít happen Ė or can it?

I hate to open up the oil line if I donít have to because Iím afraid I might cause leaks and compound the problem, plus I found that I donít think I know what Iím doing with flare fittings. I have a cheap YellowJacket gauge which I found was inaccurate for measuring pump pressure, but I thought I might use it anyway to check the vacuum at the pump.

So I put a wrench on the input line to the pump to remove the line (last pic) but I must be doing something wrong. I tried to turn that nut in the last pic counterclockwise Ė but it wonít budge. Isnít that how you would remove the line? I was afraid I would break something so I stopped.

Iíve run out of oil before and havenít had this problem. So now Iím just sitting here scratching my head.

Any thoughts at all would be greatly appreciated!!

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  #10  
Old 04-22-16, 10:02 AM
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Air will work itself out if you got good flow by gravity. I would if you have a air compressor blow the line between tanks.Fittings coming of the bottom look like they will sludge. Even a vacuum cleaner pushing the air with rags might work. Make sure you hear the roar of bubbles in the tank. That is the right way to take off the nut in the last picture,use two wrenches.
 
  #11  
Old 04-22-16, 12:50 PM
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guyold thanks very much. Iíll open up that piping between the tanks Ė and if I understand correctly Iíll use pressure back towards the tanks and I should (hopefully) hear some bubbling and possibly Iíll get a better flow. First Iíll try pushing air with my vacuum cleaner with a rag. If that doesnít work I think I can rent an air compressor from home depot and Iíll try that. Isnít much money for a few hours.

I have to get the dogís ears taken care of now, she canít sleep and so I canít sleep Ėlol and so Iím afraid to do almost any kind of work. At my age I screw up even when I get a lot of sleep, lol.

Iím just lucky this happened now after heating season. Iím just without hot water, but I can live with that. I know those valves had to go. I wanted to run the tanks low before I messed with them. Iím terrified of an oil spill.

Iíll post back when I try to clear the piping.

Thanks again!!!

(p.s. I see some guys show you how to change valves with oil still in the tank. They suck out air at the fill pipe and block the vent. I guess you know that trick. But that seems scary to me. I saw one pro tell a guy not to try that Ė lol)
 
  #12  
Old 04-22-16, 12:55 PM
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Back from the dentist. The swelling in my jaw might have affected my brain. Still think you should blow the line between tanks. If you got good flow at the filter the problem is downstream of the filter. That flow you see at the filter should be almost the same as the last flare if you got it off.Don't forget you could trash a even new strainer in no time with mud. Wont taking the cover off the pump more or less do the same thing? Never liked Danfoss. Sob should have put a valve at the pump too.
 
  #13  
Old 04-22-16, 02:07 PM
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no oil

Not familiar with the Danfoss pump. Does it have a strainer? Is it clean? (I don't think you mentioned it) Good luck, Steve
 
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Old 04-22-16, 05:10 PM
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Thanks a lot for your help guys.

guyold Iíll check the flow from point to point to isolate the bottleneck. I hope itís not the line from the oil filter to the burner. The oil line from the tank to the burner is in cement at the base of the wall for about 20 feet and then is actually embedded in the cement floor for a short distance as it crosses from the wall out to the burner. I read that they donít do that anymore because the copper line can corrode in the cement and leak unbeknownst to the homeowner. Iíd be really afraid to blow out that line. Maybe if the blockage actually is in fact in that line Iíll bite the bullet and replace the entire oil line from the tank to the burner.

sdodder yes the fuel pump has a filter and I replaced that with a new filter. The fuel pump filter actually didnít look too bad to me. Just a little bit of crud on one spot. Looked like about the same as when I replace it each year.
 
  #15  
Old 04-22-16, 07:27 PM
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Agree the dog comes first.Done some valve changes with vacuum,it's always noisy and hairy.Don't recall doing a dual tank though. With co2 there is alot of pressure quick so sometimes twist it slow and leave connection loose. Maybe a vacuum would not be too bad.Rolling out a new line is best.Flares are easy, just remember a nickle width above the block. Hope the dog gets well.
 
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Old 04-22-16, 07:36 PM
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If you do decide to blow out line don't forget to have two ends undone so pressure can hopefully go out the right end.
 
  #17  
Old 04-23-16, 04:47 AM
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I've been thinking about this situation and may have a little insight. My Oil Tank used to be located only 4 feet away from my Boiler, and I was also diligent in changing both the Filter and the Oil Strainer in the Suntec Pump almost every year.

Only when I was involved in 2013 replacing the Tank and relocating it to the other side of my basement did I realize how much sludge had accumulated in the Tank and the ⅜" line between the Tank and the Pump. My Tank Replacement Crew left me with the responsibility of draining the last of the Oil (only about 20 or 25 gallons) out of the old tank before they would remove it. Simple . . . . I thought !

I jacked up one end about 4" and thought that would do the job . . . . but the copper line was slowly blocked with sludge the consistency of toothpaste. I was able to thread a piece of electric cord into the tubing and create an opening to get some flow but it slowly closed up again . . . . and again !

If I had put pressure on the contents, like your compressor will, I fear that my porous sludge would have become a solid mass, and impeded any flow at all. Unlike a sponge which allows some movement through it, it might become rigid.

I was only dealing with 4 or 5 feet of copper tubing. My suspicion is that you may have to thread a flexible wire/cord through the entire 30 or 40 feet between the Tanks and the Burner. Maybe after the wire has made it through, you could pull a good string through, with a cleaning rag similar to what we might use to clean the Bore of a Rifle, and more than once . . . . changing the rag before each return trip in the opposite direction.

Depending on what you see coming out of the Tubing, you may want to inject some kind of solvent to liquify (liquefy?) any remaining crud, and let it sit for a while before a final cleaning.

The alternative is having someone replace the entire line, and as I recall, your Tanks are located quite a distance away from the Boiler . . . . caused me to begin thinking about a preventative maintenance procedure for my own situation where the distance is now far greater than the 4' that used to be involved.

And yes, you're very lucky this didn't occur during the heating season !
 
  #18  
Old 04-23-16, 07:43 AM
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Unless fuel oil is filtered before entering the tank, sludge is a “given” in every system. Yeas back, pumped 15 gallons of sludge out of my 560 gallon tank.

Now at each fill add Fuel Oil Sludge Treat (Hercules 35310) 3 oz per 100 gal. Also use IPC Water Detecting compound on dip stick to check for water before paying for delivery.

Use two filters, course and fine. Vacuum gauge gives indication of filter status. When gauge goes over 12 replace “coarse” filter. Then if vacuum does not go below 5, replace "fine“ filter.

Pumps eventually have to be replaced. Having a glycerine filled pressure gauge helps with the diagnosis of old and adjusting pressure on the new one. In older systems oil pressure was 100 PSI but today is often higher.
 
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Old 04-23-16, 07:45 AM
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Thanks again guys. Very useful information.

(The dog is fine – thanks)

I think I can get back to the job this weekend. Hope so. But at least I have a lot of good information from here to work with now. Not totally in the dark now –lol.

guyold one question: Is the nickels width referring to the distance from the flare nut to the fitting?

(Vermont I’m seeing black oil coming from the tank that ran down. I know that can’t be good.)

doug just saw your post. good ideas. I'll do that. never thought about IPC.
 
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Old 04-23-16, 08:28 AM
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If you put a nickle on top of the block, it should come even with the top of the copper tube. So the thickness of a nickle. Disregard the scooped out part, flat of the top of the block.
 
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Old 04-23-16, 09:43 AM
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I go it guyold. Thanks. I didn't know what the block was at first, never did a flare. But I see now.

thanks!
 
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Old 04-23-16, 10:31 AM
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Sorry I wasn't clear,zoesdad. Just saw on Amazon where orange coated 3/8 is around 87 bucks w/freeshipping.That's 50 feet. Flaring tools at the big boxes pretty cheap. Reuse flare nuts and connection if your careful. What ever way you go I am sure you get it done. Good for the dog and you she's better.
 
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Old 04-23-16, 10:46 AM
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Well thanks a lot guyold. Appreciate that.

I'm a basket case - it doesnít take much to stop me in my tracks, lol. I loosened the nut on the flare fitting and backed it off. I can go to the other end and do the same thing. But how in the world would you get that piece of tubing out when there is absolutely no play in either direction: left or right, lol.

Probably staring me in the face but I donít see it. If you cut it your back where you started Ė how would you get a new piece in place? I guess you have to go back down the line farther and start removing other pieces as you do with threaded pipe.

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Old 04-23-16, 10:56 AM
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Bend the tubing in the middle,you just need fractions. The less bending the better because you need to put it back on. With enough room should just fall away.
 
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Old 04-23-16, 11:02 AM
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guyold thank you one more time.

I see what you are saying. I have to go out very soon so I don't think I can get back to the task for a while. I'll post back with the results. Thanks again!
 
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Old 04-23-16, 02:03 PM
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guyold I was able to get back to the task for a while. Got the copper tubing off between the 2 tanks bending it just a little as you said. Worked fine and I was later able to put it back on without any leaks.

With the tubing off I opened the left valve and just got a trickle just as I saw at the filter head before. I then stuck a stiff piece of wire through the brass fitting and into the gate valve, and what do you know, I got a steady stream of oil out immediately. I tested the stream for a few gallons, turning the valve open and closed. With the valve opened it’s a steady stream of nice clear red oil that shoots out about 5-6 inches. So it seems to me that valve is OK and must have been blocked with crud.

I also tested the valve on the right tank, opening and closing. With that valve opened I also I get a steady stream shooting out about 5-6 inches.

Neither valve drips when closed.

Down at the burner however with the bleeder port open it’s dry as a bone. I double checked and I do have 9 inches of oil in the left tank. I’m keeping the right tank valve closed for a while. That oil looked a little dirty, then watery, then clear or green or something. Might be OK since it’s diesel from the gas station – and I don’t think that oil is dyed red. So it might be OK. But I don’t see why I can’t troubleshoot just using the left tank for now.

I’m going to check the output of the filter next when I get back to the task. If it flows out of the filter head I guess that would point to a blockage in the oil line from the filter output to the burner.

Thanks for the reference to the orange coated stuff and thanks a lot for your help!!
 
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Old 04-23-16, 02:44 PM
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It would take a good long time to gravity to and thru the pump. 2 full tanks and not so long. If you were worried about the part under the floor you could take the flare off at the pump and maybe flush it from there and check flow. Gravity with the bleeder takes a while. Cover off the pump and it shoots right out too depending on restrictions and oil level.
 
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Old 04-23-16, 07:44 PM
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The profile of oil lines from tank to burner is often ĒUĒ sharped. With low nozzle flow rates, especially on one pipe systems that tends to trap debris.

A common solution is to blow out the line with compressed air or CO2 cartridge unit, typically back to tank. If a filter is in the line, then remove cartridge first.
 
  #29  
Old 04-24-16, 09:43 AM
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Thanks guys. I am trying to get back to this job. Everything happens at once Ėlol.

Iím not at that point now, but does anyone know if you can run the oil line through some kind of conduit? It seems to me if/when I get to that I would like to leave the old pipe in place if possible.

The 3/8 copper now runs down the wall-floor intersection with cement over it, with about an 18 inch section buried in the floor as it crosses to the burner. I was wondering if you can do something like put that plastic sheathed oil line in some kind of conduit run close to the current path.

Just wondering if something like that is possible.
 
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Old 04-24-16, 11:59 AM
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hi guys –

It looks like maybe I’m close to being back in business but I stopped for now because I need to ask you an important question.

I checked the output of the oil filter between the tanks and there was as small but steady stream (1 gal/5 mins), smaller than the input to the filter which I guess makes sense. I poked a wire in the output port and thought I saw a small piece of sediment come out, but I’m not sure. The output stream stayed the same at the same rate.

Went back to the pump and tried multiple times to prime and this time I finally got a good flow but really foamy. I know enough to keep going until the bubbles disappear. But I stopped for this reason and it’s the same thing I’ve encountered before and I don’t know what to make of it.

I have the bleeder screw almost completely turned out of the bleeder port with my little piece of clear plastic hose on it. I see a strong steady stream of foam from the bleeder port. But the burner actually started to fire and I got some puff back. This has happened before. Is there something wrong with the pump? I thought with the bleeder port opened all the way no oil should get through to the nozzle?

Other times I waited until the foam disappeared and closed the bleeder valve with the pump running and then the burner would fire. But sometimes I could hear the burner actually running before I closed the bleeder port.

That doesn’t seem good to me. Is that a problem?

(seems like the pump decides the flow is good enough and diverts some to the nozzle. I guess I have to admit I don't have a clue as to how the pump really works)
 
  #31  
Old 04-24-16, 01:01 PM
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I was wondering what else I didn't like about the Danfoss besides the straight down pointing bleeder and the o-ring. What you stated sounds about right. Don't forget things like nozzles and p.s. can foul quick. Here used secured elect. conduit,steel pipe,the rolled black well pipe over oil line. Just remember I.D. with or without flare nut.Sounds like your getting close.
 
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Old 04-24-16, 01:23 PM
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what can i say but thanks again guyold. I see what you are saying - and I know how to use electr, conduit. I'll get back to the job soon(hopefully today/tomorrow) to finish priming and tell you what happened.

Just remember I.D. with or without flare nut.
I would not have thought of that!! thanks again
 
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Old 04-25-16, 06:54 AM
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Back in business. Been running fine since yesterday. Learned a lesson or two here.

Thanks for all the help guys, couldn't have done it without you.
 
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