HELP! New homeowner discovering heating issues

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Old 01-08-18, 06:50 PM
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Exclamation HELP! New homeowner discovering heating issues

Ok so the short of it from what i understand they mixed in baseboard with old cast iron radiators, and the hot water isn't making it way to the baseboards
I had a friends friend service my boiler and check out the heating issue he said i have to put them on a separate zone with thermostat in the bedroom, basically loop in the baseboards in circuit.

So what all the information you need to guide me to do this the right way, not a fan of putting bandaids on gunshot wounds, do it once do it right.

ill get the specs of the boiler and take comprehensive photos
 
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Old 01-08-18, 07:02 PM
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Welcome to the forums.

I am not the pro in this forum but I do know that baseboards and iron radiators can be used together. Two of my friends have them. They are a real pain to bleed the air out of but once that's done they both work great.

Pictures are always helpful and the guys will stop by and add to this.
How-to-insert-pictures
 
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Old 01-09-18, 04:15 AM
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After you post pictures and give a better explanation of your system some of the guys that monitor this site can help. Usually baseboard radiation and cast iron rads will only work if they are zoned separately. Cast iron radiators heat a room by convection and radiation where as baseboards only heat by convection and cast iron radiators have a large mass to give off heat long after the boiler shuts off.
 
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Old 01-09-18, 09:04 AM
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N,
For me, the most important thing to know is what type of system you have.

Is it a monoflo or loop system or some other design.

I can tell you as PJ said rads and baseboard DO work together. I have that mixture in my house.

I happen to have a monoflo system. I had installed baseboard heat and then installed a rad over 30 yrs. ago and has been working great.

Proper installation is the key. Bleeding can be difficult with a monoflo system but once done works fine.

Hope this helps a little.
 
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Old 01-14-18, 05:40 AM
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i believe its a series loop - so the guy i had here said
although the baseboard isn't in the series loop, its tapped into the feed and return

pictures being edited with info and added as we speak
 
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Old 01-14-18, 07:15 AM
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photos attached

the run to the kitchen is kind of mind blowing they tapped into the old pipes that ran through the original wall
that's on its own loop so to speak

the bedroom/bathroom isn't in a circuit but as you can see is tied into each other
the run to the bedroom the copper pipe is hot halfway there then is cold
the split and short run to the bathroom radiator allows it to get warm... but prob not hot enough

the oil burner guy i had come over closed the valves and bled each run, the radiators got hot (took a while 5 gallon bucket maybe a little more), he said a little air came out but not much

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Last edited by PJmax; 11-05-18 at 11:29 AM. Reason: reoriented/spaced pics
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Old 01-14-18, 07:19 AM
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more pictures attached..... again sorry for poor quality

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Last edited by PJmax; 11-05-18 at 11:47 AM. Reason: cropped/resized/reoriented pics
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Old 01-14-18, 07:22 AM
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sorry for some reason some of the pictures are rotated, makes no sense

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Last edited by PJmax; 11-05-18 at 11:58 AM. Reason: cropped/reoriented/enhanced pics
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Old 01-15-18, 09:14 AM
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First off, the piping is not a series loop but looks like a reducing main. It could have been steam converted to hot water but that we may never know for sure. Has this unit ever heated your house as it should? The water heater is called an "indirect"'. The 2 pipes that go into the side of the tank in the upper area (supply) and go out at the bottom, (the return) are supposed to feed the hot water from the heating system to the water heater to heat the domestic hot water. This may seem like a stupid question, but do the hot water pipes to the cast iron radiators feed into the top of the radiator and out the bottom on the other side? How many occupied floors are there 1 or 2? Do you know if this system ever heated the home correctly? If you can't solve the heating problems you may need to call in an expert to correct the problems. I stated in my earlier post that you can't mix finned tube baseboard with cast iron radiators but you can if it is done right. For that you will need someone well versed in hot water heating systems. I never did it because it is too hard and too much trouble to do on an old system. usually, in your type system the circulating pump runs all the time whenever the system water is above 110 degrees .
 

Last edited by Steamboy; 01-15-18 at 09:17 AM. Reason: more information
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Old 01-15-18, 12:16 PM
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N,
It looks like you have a 2 pipe system which means the supply pipe from the boiler feeds the individual supplies to the units and the return lines from the units goes into a separate return line to the boiler.

In other words, after the main supply feeds all the emitters it simply stops and the end is capped. the returns from all the emitters goes into a return main which goes back to the boiler.

By the looks of the pics each emitter has its own supply and return shutoff valves.

My guess would be you have a poor circulation problem due to poor pipe design.

To see if you can get water to flow to those unheated rads try shutting off all the other emitters except the ones you're trying to get heat to for a start. If you can establish flow, the rads will heat.

If they do heat then open the other emitters one at a time and see if that one heats. Keep going until they are all open, checking periodically to make sure the first ones are still heating.

My guess is how the guy got heat in the first was simply by opening the vent he created circulation which allowed hot water to enter the rad, but once closed the water stopped moving.

From the pics posted my guess would be this problem started when the new boiler was installed. The boiler supply pipe going into the main is much too small as is the return and I believe that 007 pump is also too small to handle the job.

You have 2 expansion tanks because when they changed the boiler and near boiler piping they didn't have a clue of what they were doing and put in a #30 extrol and your relief immediately started going off because the tank was too small.

Cast iron radiation requires a #60 minimum.

One thing I would do is increase the pressure to at least 20psi, you're too low at 12 with your system.

Your system looks like a comedy of errors and if the tech you had thinks that is a loop system find another tech. This guy will send you to the poor house before he finds a solution.

Just my thoughts, hope this helps a little.
 
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Old 01-15-18, 01:28 PM
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Second what Spot said - get a good boiler guy to look at this. I'm less concerned with the undersized near boiler piping, than that you seem to have fin tube in parallel with cast iron radiation. If this was all cast iron with that large diameter piping, your little pump might be OK. But, the fin tube has much more flow resistance (head) than cast iron radiators. In a parallel circuit the low head radiators will take all the flow, and the high head fin tube will be starved for flow, and you'll have cold fin tube.

The answer might be to just put a dedicated secondary pump on the fin tube loop(s) that runs along with the main pump, or to upsize the main pump. The former is probably the safer and cheaper bet. To get a little more control, use a true variable speed pump for the secondary so you can dial it back, or control it with a thermostat and relay.

In a situation like this, some might recommend a zone controller and repiping the fin tube back to a manifold with each zone controlled by its own pump. But, small, low mass zones don't work for boilers like this, and cutting into the old big pipe would be a big job.

FInally, once you get this worked out, maybe get some good pipe insulation and put an inch of insulation on all that bare pipe.
 
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Old 11-05-18, 10:51 AM
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Alright guys as the temps trending down I have to get this resolved sooner rather than later
I can sweat the pipes and run the electric I just need some advise on how I should go about splitting this onto its own loop
hoping one of you plumbing experts can spare some time to point me in the right direction
 
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Old 11-05-18, 12:02 PM
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Your pictures were all very large. The board tries to get the maximum compressed size in that it can so it turns the pictures to fit the template. All pictures resized to fit directly. Cut down on your file storage space used too.



file.DIY.BH1-18/img/s
 
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