Going crazy over framing for picture frame deck design.

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Old 06-15-17, 07:30 AM
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Going crazy over framing for picture frame deck design.

Hey y'all!

I'm working on designing a small 16x20 deck for my backyard and I'm going a little bonkers on the framing for the picture frame portion. I'm hoping you can set me straight on what I assume is normally a simple solution.

The framing is all doubled-up beams and doubled-up end joists. Here's a little scribbling just to be precise:

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Simple enough. Now, the problem I'm having is that the picture frame boards will sit on the beams / doubled-up end joists, but the the field boards, running perpendicular to the joists, won't have any end support. Obviously, I need a joist close to their edge so things aren't bouncing around.

The issue I'm having here is that the space between the doubled-up end joist, and any joist put close to the edge of the field boards, leaves very little space for nailing. If I want an overhang of an inch of the field board ends to the joist, then it leaves a space of roughly 2 inches for nailing hangers.

My current solution involves pre-nailing the hangers on the joist for the field board ends, and then dropping them in place and nailing to the beam. It's doable, but slightly convoluted. On top of that, Simpson doesn't seem to have a joist hanger in that format with the Z-MAX coating, or SS for that matter. Since it's a ground-level (not on the ground directly, but low ventilation compared to walk-out height), I'm trying to think about longevity and the quality of connectors.

Here's yet another picture just to be precise. Possibly hard to see, but I've marked out roughly where the joists would be (top of the picture) underneath the deck boards:

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Long story short, is there a better solution that I'm just not seeing here?


Thanks in advance.
 
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Old 06-15-17, 07:49 AM
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Here is a guide book that may provide some options.
http://www.awc.org/pdf/codes-standar...Guide-1405.pdf

See if that helps and check back.

Bud
 
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Old 06-15-17, 07:49 AM
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Is it a free standing deck? (recommended). How high off the ground will the deck be? Will there be a railing? Joist hangers are usually nailed first. That's not strange.
 
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Old 06-15-17, 07:59 AM
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Simply put, I think if you triple the end joist on the left side of your picture you won't have any problems. You could put that 3rd one in a hanger first, add the 2nd onto it, (use L50 as needed) then add the outer end joist, nailing it to the others.

If you need to work from the outside in, you might need to make use of a few more Simpson L50 brackets rather than joist hangers.

Your corner will also turn out better if you stagger the laps where your rim and outer joists connect. In other words, cut your inner rim joist 1 1/2" shorter and your outer joist 1 1/2" longer so they overlap.
 
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Old 06-15-17, 08:51 AM
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Took a look at the AWC document, but it doesn't seem to have anything prescriptive for picture framing.

Appreciate the link, though, because it's nice to have all the tables and example drawings in a single document!

Freestanding deck, ~4" inches off the ground, framing-wise, with no railings. I'll have a jig for setting the joist hangers in place before the actual joists, but this post was more about the -- what seems to me, at least -- complex set of steps/hanger types to make my design work, in order to support the field board ends.

As far as doing a triple rim joist/end joist, that's still not wide enough. With an overhang of 1 - 1 1/4" to support the fascia boards and a nose, that's 4" on the inside, so a triple still won't be wide enough to support the field board ends... leaving even less space for nailing.

And just to be clear, since ShortyLong mentioned something that made me think of it... I do plan on nailing the hangers first with a jig, but the only ones that come in Z-MAX are the double shear or concealed flange, which means I wouldn't have enough space to nail the joist that supports the field board end. There's the LU208/210, which could be installed to the joist then dropped in for face nailing... but it has no Z-MAX option.

Probably not the biggest deal, but it'd rather not have it rust out after a few years while the others are holding. It'd be incredibly hard to replace as a ground-level deck.
 
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Old 06-15-17, 09:18 AM
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It took me a while to understand what you meant by 2", but I think I see now. Personally I would probably space that 3rd joist in about 3" or 4"... enough to slip one hand and a palm nailer down there. I'm not a big fan of putting on joist hangers first. I flush up joists on top, and toenail them where they belong... then a helper can nail on hangers later. You rarely have joists that are all the same width... they can vary by up to 3/8" in my experience, with some bring close to 9 1/2, others closer to 9 1/8. Always chaps my hide.
 
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Old 06-15-17, 09:46 AM
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I've picture framed octagonal decks so what you need to do is add more nailing surfaces. Here is an example of what can be done.

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You will have to drill holes with a spade bit or Forstner bit to clear bolts from the rim.
 
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Old 06-15-17, 09:48 AM
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Do not use any hangers that don't have the Z Max label. A chemical reaction could occur in 6 weeks.
 
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Old 06-15-17, 11:04 AM
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Right, that's the thing: I want all Z-MAX hangers, and the only one that "simplifies" my current design is the non-double-shear/non-concealed ones, which aren't available as Z-MAX, hence why I'm here.

I'll definitely look into the angle brackets and switching to a triple/quadruple rim as seats for the boards to sit on. I was trying to ensure that I had as much open air between boards as possible, rather than having any spots where debris wouldn't be able to cleanly fall through.. but I suppose if it's all taped, it'd be OK.
 
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Old 06-15-17, 06:12 PM
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Just as a follow-up, because I hate when I find other people who asked the same questions that I have and then never post what they ended up doing... I think I have my solution.

I bought some actual Simpson hangers, to mimic my design, and figured out the minimum amount of space I would need to get a palm nailer in there at the right angle, etc.. and I think if I add a sister joist to each of the actual joists on the end, but don't go the full length, so that I only need a single width hanger, I can nail them in place, properly... but still providing enough bearing surface for the board ends. I took some pictures to show what I plan on doing.

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I can sister them/scab it on before, same nailing schedule as a built-up beam, and drop them in place all with the ZMAX-coated hangers, no shenanigans. Hopefully it'll be an acceptable solution to the AHJ since the actual joist will be bearing the weight properly, the sister/scab will just be to prevent a little more deflection at the end.
 
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Old 06-15-17, 06:40 PM
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If the sistered joist doesn't go to the end, it worthless.
 
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Old 06-15-17, 06:54 PM
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It's not sistered to be able to carry a full load, though. The single joist can carry the load just fine, but with unacceptable deflection of the field board ends. The sistered/scabbed joint is just extra nailing surface.

The way I see it, everyone who is building single picture frame decks has to either be:
1. cantilevering the field board ends multiple inches over the 2nd to last side rim joist
2. end nailing the joists instead of using hangers
3. using a horizontal 2x member for a nailing surface, while also end nailing
4. using a triple or quadruple side rim joist

#1 seems sort of reasonable but unlikely? #2 seems like a straight-up no-go due to not using proper hardware, and #3 also seems like a no-go for the lack of proper hardware. #4 seems like the most "standard", being able to use standard connectors, but then you have a bunch of gaps around the edge of the deck that can't drain downwards, which seems less than ideal.
 
 

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