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Greenboard or Hardibacker/Durock/etc for Tub surround wall panels

Greenboard or Hardibacker/Durock/etc for Tub surround wall panels

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  #1  
Old 04-16-17, 11:43 PM
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Greenboard or Hardibacker/Durock/etc for Tub surround wall panels

Hello,

I've been reading through the forum but thought I ask since I'm still not 100% sure.

I'm putting up tub surround wall panels on my bath walls. The general recommendation I'm reading/being told at stores is that I can just glue it to drywall (Greenboard), but I thought that Greenboard is not recommended for wet areas(which is why tiling requires a cement board). Should I use a cement backer board instead?

The product manual says
  • Walls should be 1/2 (13 mm) drywall or water-resistant drywall. The surface must be free of dirt, film, waxes or any other residues. Painted surfaces must be sanded. Remove wallpaper. Do not install panels over existing ceramic tile or plywood


It doesn't say anything about cement boards. I purchased Liquid Nails for Tub Surround as the adhesive because it says it will bond to cement boards.

Would I still have to tape the seams & corners and apply thinset as if I were going to tile
 
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Old 04-17-17, 01:44 AM
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You are putting up a surround, not tile. A surround is basically waterproof (even more so if it's a one piece). A multiple piece surround requires multiple caulk beads where the seams overlap, that is normally adequate protection for the wallboard underneath. There is officially no such thing as greenboard though you will often see it used, even by manufacturers. What you want is mold and water resistant labeling. I swear I've seen something that is basically faced with a fiberglass type mesh, but I'm not in the business, so I'm probably wrong.

One problem with cement board use is the special fasteners (or they will get eaten by the cement) and the weight. They are also harder to cut for someone that hasn't worked with them much. You need special joint compound (not thinset) I believe and definitely a special tape for cement board as well. Because of the thickness difference you also may have issues with a smooth transition to the walls.

Greenboard IS recommended for walls and ceilings in high humidity and lower moisture areas like bathroom ceilings and walls not directly exposed to water.

I hope you meant "as if I were going to tile". If you use green board, you can't tile.

If you use greenboard, you could always put a coat of something like Redgard for even more moisture resistance.

I know the Pro's are probably going to point out the error of my ways, that's why they get paid for their work.
 
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Old 04-17-17, 02:50 AM
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I've seen something that is basically faced with a fiberglass type mesh
I've only painted it a few times but I think Vic is referring to the 'yellow' drywall.
IMO there isn't much use for greenboard. Once regular drywall is primed and coated with latex enamel it has pretty much all the moisture protection it should need for the walls/ceiling of a bath rm. Plus regular drywall takes paint better than greenboard. If I used greenboard it would just be behind the plastic surround.
 
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Old 04-17-17, 04:35 AM
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Hi! Thanks for the quick response! I've been mulling over this for days now and I should have just made a post.

So the consensus is using drywall with a mold & water resistant label(in the stores its green) is okay for tub surrounds, right?

IF I already had hardibacker and wanted to proceed(might be difficult to get 4X8's this morning to start & I have to),

1) What's that special joint compound that I need? HD/Lowes should know right? The guy at HD showed me the tape and pre-mixed mortar to buy and I did.
2) There would be no need for Redguard/waterproof membrane, right?
3) Whether I use drywall or hardibacker, I have to tape the seams & corners, apply joint compound and wait 24 hrs before gluing the surround, right? Can it be less than 24 hrs since its surround?
 
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Old 04-17-17, 04:40 AM
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How long it takes premixed j/c to dry depends on temp/humidity and how thick it's applied. You can get setting compounds [Durabond, EasySand] that set chemically. It's a powder you mix with water. The number on the bag denotes the time it takes to set up; 90 min, 45 min, 20 min, etc.

No need to waterproof the drywall although I would prime and apply 1 coat of latex enamel ... mosty as a precaution.
 
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Old 04-17-17, 05:47 AM
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Hi marksr,

Did I mention that I will be asking a lot of questions? My fear is causing catastrophic damage with my DIY Projects so I normally get to worried too attempt....hence my questions

The number on the bag denotes the time it takes to set up; 90 min, 45 min, 20 min, etc.
Great! The 24 hour wait was going to be hurt my already tight timeline(I may have to wait until 6pm to get the drywalls).

1) Is there a pre-mixed version, I'm only seeing 25lbs bags online and I don't need that much, right? Is pre-mixed recommended at all?

2) Any brand of latex enamel?
 
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Old 04-17-17, 10:28 AM
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Premixed joint compound and setting compound are totally different even though they can preform the same job. Premixed is ready to use right out of the bucket although remixing and adding a small amount of water will make it flow/spread better. Setting compounds have a set work time and when mixed the clock starts ticking. When it starts to set up any unused mix portion has to be discarded as it will set up in the mud pan or bucket as well as on the wall.

What paint to use is mostly personal choice and budget. The better paints will cover better and in the case of latex enamels, the better quality latex enamels are more durable with their cheaper counterpart prone to chip/peel when subjected to abuse.

As long as you leave the dynamite at the store there aren't too many mistakes you can make working on your house that can't be fixed.
 
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Old 04-17-17, 11:38 AM
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Doing more research, how about Densshield? I think that's the yellow drywall?

I think drywall makes me nervous since that's what failed (tiles over drywall)
 
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Old 04-17-17, 11:47 AM
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I've never hung/finished any yellow drywall, just painted it a time or two. I wouldn't use any drywall product under tile in a wet location like a tiled tub/shower surround. It fails because sooner or later the grout will allow moisture to get behind the tile. Since you are using a plastic surround there are no grout joints to fail and the plastic interlocks where it's unlikely water will get behind the surround.
 
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Old 04-17-17, 11:48 AM
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First, verify that you are installing surround Panels for your tub area and not individual tile. A three piece surround will need to be glued up to regular drywall of green board. Tile is another story. Tub surround will use tub surround adhesive, not liquid nails as the adhesive may bleed through the material.
 
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Old 04-17-17, 01:06 PM
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Since you are using a plastic surround there are no grout joints to fail and the plastic interlocks where it's unlikely water will get behind the surround.
Ok, I got it....but the surround will not be covering the shower head area. Still ok, just get a good quality latex enamel paint?

I'm definitively settled on returning the hardibacker.....just trying to alleviate fears of a repeat drywall incident. Thanks again
 
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Old 04-17-17, 01:12 PM
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If you look at tiled bath rms you'll see the majority of them stop the tile before it reaches the shower head. Any latex enamel will meet the minimum requirement, a bath rm paint [which has extra mildewcide and formulated for the harsher bath environment] is better. I'd want to seal the top lip of the surround to the drywall with a bead of caulk.
 
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Old 04-17-17, 01:14 PM
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First, verify that you are installing surround Panels for your tub area and not individual tile. A three piece surround will need to be glued up to regular drywall of green board. Tile is another story. Tub surround will use tub surround adhesive, not liquid nails as the adhesive may bleed through the material
Yes, 5 piece surround wall.

Yes, I bought Liquid Nails's Tub Surround Adhesive since it stated it would work with durock, cement boards unlike Loctite etc., however, I still I have the Loctite PL 550 Tub Surround.
 
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Old 04-17-17, 03:00 PM
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Hi marksr,

Missed your earlier post.... Re: pre-mixed joint vs setting compound
Premixed joint compound and setting compound are totally different even though they can preform the same job. Premixed is ready to use right out of the bucket although remixing and adding a small amount of water will make it flow/spread better. Setting compounds have a set work time and when mixed the clock starts ticking. When it starts to set up any unused mix portion has to be discarded as it will set up in the mud pan or bucket as well as on the wall.
I think i'm a bit unclear...so I can use setting compound or premixed joint compound but will using setting compound reduced the 24 hours wait time? I think you're saying setting compound will start to set up within the defined work time ergo faster curing?
 
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Old 04-17-17, 03:14 PM
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Yes, setting compounds dry faster which is why many of us use it for making repairs. It's not quite as easy to use as ready mix compound but not much harder. It's not water soluble and some brands are hard to sand. Setting compounds allow you to apply 2 coats of mud in the same work day. [3 coats is possible] The lower the number on the bag the quicker the turn around time is where you can apply the next coat. It doesn't always dry as fast as the time stated on the bag but is a LOT quicker than ready mix j/c.
 
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Old 04-17-17, 03:16 PM
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Setting type compounds dry by chemical reaction. They set up faster and don't rely on evaporation like premixed compounds. However, just cause it says 20 minutes on it, doesn't mean it will be fully cured in 20 minutes. Plan on a couple of hours before sanding. Prime and paint to eliminate dust before you hang your panels.
 
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Old 04-17-17, 03:20 PM
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Also if you paint over uncured setting compound [it will still have a grey color - not white] it will often 'burn' the paint .... basically just affecting the looks of the coating, another coat of paint fixes it.
 
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Old 04-17-17, 09:05 PM
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Hi All,

I just got back from HD. Got the drywall, rented a truck, dropped it at home, loaded the hardibacker and back to HD to return it and the truck back. Whew!

So I should have bought the Durabond 20 then I bought 45. Is a 25lb bag enough? I was in a rush and got 1 and also 1 EasySand 25lb. I wasn't sure which one so I got both. Is there a preference for either?

. It's not water soluble and some brands are hard to sand.
Is EasySand ...easy to sand

Prime and paint to eliminate dust before you hang your panels.
How important is this step, could I do something else instead like wipe it down with a damp cloth? Actually, according to the manufacturer, Painted walls had to be sanded down, so doesn't that imply an unpainted is preferred?

Is there fast-drying latex enamel paint?
 
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Old 04-17-17, 11:14 PM
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So I was ready to install hardibacker (watched videos, read forums etc), so now I have to do the same with drywall.

The drywall will be sitting above the tub flange, with a 1/8? spacing...can't find any videos on hanging drywall around the tub. Would it be the same as hardibacker (1/8 spacing)? I won't be able place the drywall beyond the flange & above off the tub and keep wall flat.

I bought 1 1/4 inch screws & fibatape mold & mildew tape.
 
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Old 04-18-17, 03:29 AM
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You can install 1/4" lattice pieces on the face of the studs above the surround so the sheetrock will sit directly on the shower surround, not on the lip. You can leave a 1/8" gap for warm and fuzzy if you wish. It will be caulked anyway. Why are you still considering hardiebacker above the shower panels? I thought you wanted to paint it. Are you going to tile the area or paint it??
 
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Old 04-18-17, 03:30 AM
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While I prefer the Durabond 20, a slower set time is more novice friendly. The 90 minute mud is probably the most popular. EasySand does sand easier than Durabond but not as easy as the premixed mud.

I prefer to prime/paint the drywall first to give it a little added protection .... but then I am a painter

1/4" above the tub is good.
 
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Old 04-18-17, 07:21 AM
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You can install 1/4" lattice pieces on the face of the studs above the surround so the sheetrock will sit directly on the shower surround, not on the lip. You can leave a 1/8" gap for warm and fuzzy if you wish. It will be caulked anyway.
I've already put up the back wall, it should still work right? I don't have a car at the moment, so I couldn't go to the store even if I wanted to. If this is something that must be done, I'll have to stop & call my brother to get his car during his lunch. Can't I just fill the entire area behind surround with caulk?

Why are you still considering hardiebacker above the shower panels? I thought you wanted to paint it. Are you going to tile the area or paint it??
I'm not using hardibacker at all since the consensus was to use drywall. I ended up returning it last night and buying the "green" drywall.
 
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Old 04-18-17, 07:42 AM
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Hi marksr,

While I prefer the Durabond 20, a slower set time is more novice friendly. The 90 minute mud is probably the most popular. EasySand does sand easier than Durabond but not as easy as the premixed mud.
.
Ok, I'll stick with EasySand and probably the 45. The plan is to split the joint-taping into 2/3 sections and mix enough to make sure I can complete in 45.

I prefer to prime/paint the drywall first to give it a little added protection .... but then I am a painter
BTW I got the green drywall, does that change things as per painting? I will try to add this step but time is a factor.


1/4" above the tub is good.
What am I supposed to fill in that space? caulk? what type of caulk?

Also if the drywall is sitting 1/4" above the tub and the surround on the tub (or 1/8" away from tub), that leaves ~1.25" of space where the surround is being "glued".... to the tub flange and not the drywall...does that sound right? Should I use caulk for this area or is this a problem and I need to heed chandler's s post. I took today off and need to get this done ....getting more complex
 
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Old 04-18-17, 09:16 AM
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IMO it's often better to not mix up too much durabond, that way if you are slower than you thought you won't have a bunch to discard and it's not big deal to mix up more if you run short.

Greenboard has a somewhat 'waxy' surface which helps it repel moisture, you should be ok not painting it.

The 1/4" gap between the top of the tub and the bottom of the drywall is fine to leave open, no need to fill it. The plastic surround will come down over that to the top of the tub. I'm not sure I understand the 1.25" space ??
 
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Old 04-18-17, 10:23 AM
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IMO it's often better to not mix up too much durabond, that way if you are slower than you thought you won't have a bunch to discard and it's not big deal to mix up more if you run short.
I agree, that's my plan.

Greenboard has a somewhat 'waxy' surface which helps it repel moisture, you should be ok not painting it.
Ok, if I don't have time, I could skip this step....but it just occurred to me that I have to paint above the show head anyway...but it could wait.

The 1/4" gap between the top of the tub and the bottom of the drywall is fine to leave open, no need to fill it. The plastic surround will come down over that to the top of the tub. I'm not sure I understand the 1.25" space ??
The drywall will end 1/4 above the tub, actually I think its 1/8"...just looked at spacer label.
Since the tub surround is coming down to the tub, that means a part of it is not going to be glued to the drywall which is 1.25" (1" tub flange + 1/4 above the tub) . I hope I explained it better. I don't need to compensate and use another adhesive to glue the surround to the flange?
 
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Old 04-18-17, 10:27 AM
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Can I ask drywall questions too? I don't know how to ..mud..tape joints etc and I just spent hours on youtube when I should be putting it up. I think I got it but the drywall isn't even done yet. Probably should have stuck to hardibacker since I have already studied that, but its too late now. I'll work it out.

Also I have toilet ? to ask, might as well start mulling over this too. Do I have to start a new thread in plumbing?
 
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Old 04-19-17, 02:24 PM
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So far not good. Apparently I had the wrong nails, didn't know about counter-sinking the nails to the perfect depth, etc. Stalled at the moment, had to get back to work.

marksr, I asked about latex enamel paint and was told that all of them are "enamel"? Also should I get a flat/semigloss/etc for the bathroom?

Thanks!
 
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Old 04-19-17, 02:31 PM
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What nails did you get? Drywall nails [or screws] are noted as such on the box. The nail or screw head needs to be just a little lower than the face of the drywall. If your drywall knife will glide over the head and not hit it - your fine. If a screw is drove too deep and breaks the paper it has little holding power.

Most flat wall paints are not enamel and shouldn't be used in a bath with shower. The sheen doesn't matter too much. Most prefer semi-gloss although I'm more partial to satin or eggshell. Enamel paints are generally more washable and better repel moisture. Many flat paints will almost absorb moisture. All bath paints are enamel with most being either satin or semi-gloss. I've heard that there really isn't an industry definition for enamel so that could confuse it's definition some.
 
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Old 04-19-17, 03:29 PM
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Well, its wasn't all my mistake....it was the guy at HD. He gave me drywalls screws but they were fine thread meant for steel/metal studs. Who knew there was fins vs coarse, #8 vs #6, etc

Yes, thank goodness for youtube but yesterday was wasted. I plan to work on it a bit today. I bought tools that supposedly help with the depth issue. I need to also start asking questions about the toliet....
 
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Old 04-19-17, 03:50 PM
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If you are using a drill/driver for the screws, they make a little bit attachment that will set them just fine for a small job.

DEWALT Drywall Screw Setter (4-Pack)-DW2014C4 - The Home Depot
 
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Old 04-19-17, 06:34 PM
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Hi Gunguy45,

Yes, that's what I bought at last night but I think its something else.

Now I haven't used the screw setter yet, but I dried drilling into the scrape piece of drywall for practice and its still not going in. With a lot of effort I can get it flush with the drwall, if that, but no sinking. I thought it was the nails but with #8 coarse 1 1/4", shouldn't it go in? I tried on the 2 studs that were problems yesterday and then another set .... what's wrong
 
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Old 04-19-17, 06:48 PM
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Older homes sometimes had old growth wood that is a lot denser than today's soft pine framing. That may be some of the problem. Also, you need to hold the tool perfectly square to the drywall and the countersink is from centrifugal force driving the screw after it leaves the attachment head. I have a drywall screw gun and even with that, I find I often have to give a few screws a couple of hand turns to properly sink them.
 
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Old 04-19-17, 07:04 PM
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Z stole what I was going to say. I worked on an old warehouse probably built in the 40's and the studs were so hard, you had to pre-drill for nails! Wish I'd kept more of the scrap than I did. Who knew?

Are you using a cordless drill? Make sure it is on the low speed/high torque setting. If you want to buy another tool, an impact driver is great! I use mine way more often than I thought I would. The new ones have adjustable torque settings.
 
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Old 04-19-17, 07:54 PM
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Drive the screws at full speed if using the drywall bit attachment. It will fling the screw to the right depth. Using the drywall attachment bit on low speed will set every screw proud of the drywall as it will spin off before it has completely sunk the screw.

You can use a cordless on low torque speed if you are driving with a standard #2 bit, however, you need to watch that you don't over drive them and break through the paper liner on the wall board.
 
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Old 04-19-17, 08:30 PM
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Hmmm, never knew that. I mean, low speed is up to about 800rpm or something, figured that might give better control. Now that you say it though, screw guns do seem to just scream when they are in use.
 
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Old 04-19-17, 09:05 PM
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Hmmm, never knew that. I mean, low speed is up to about 800rpm or something, figured that might give better control. Now that you say it though, screw guns do seem to just scream when they are in use.

Vic
On yeah, screw guns scream at full speed and the pros who do it all day never take their fingers off the trigger. They are clutch activated and magnetic tipped. Add a screw and drive, the tool is already running but doesn't spin until contact is made.
 
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Old 04-20-17, 06:59 AM
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Hi,

Can we break it down step by step? I think I tried all these things but I want to make sure. So far I got it to work 1 time but can't repeat. I had to pre-drill with a different ...drill bit (not sure of name) and but not on the 2nd & 3rd try. Its very odd.

The part of wood that I'm practicing on is not that old..8 years old, the rest is original to the house 40+ years.

I have a craftman 19.2v cordless drill (model CS0939)...not sure If I'm allowed to post links. I have the torque set on the highest...its a pic of a screw. I've set to both low and high with the same results. I think the Phillip bit? looks shredded so I can change that but is that the cause?

The issue is that it literally stops drilling. It gives this loud screeching sound & locks so I can't drive it any further or more so the drill stops so I can't. Like now, its on the same setting and in 1 spot I got it to the drywall, moved above and its only 90% in and it "stops".

I hope it makes sense, not sure of the right terminology.

If I can't figure this out, I may have to start thinking about another option like what's the danger in leaving the screws out in I'm just gluing walls to it? yes, I'm at that point.

Another thing , if I have to pre-drill to get it thorough, doesn't that "break the paper"?
 
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Old 04-20-17, 01:49 PM
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The paper is broke by the tip of the screw and/or nail. That is ok, you don't want the head of the screw or nail to break the paper as that will greatly reduce it's holding power.

Phillip's bits do wear out, if it's showing signs of wear it's time to replace the bit. I have the same craftsman drill and I use it for hanging repair pieces of drywall and never have any issues with it. Does your battery have a full charge? Sometimes when you hit resistance like that you can back the screw halfway out and drive it in again.
 
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Old 04-20-17, 04:54 PM
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Hi marksr,

I've been busy with work so no progress. I plan to try again later tonight.

Yes, the drill has a full charge.

So what is the reason for the drill locking/stalling? It feels like the drill is stopping at some point or there is some mechanism that is preventing it from driving further. I thought it was the wood so I pushed hard and I consider myself a strong girl, so I'm adding a decent amount of force. It started smelling a little.....burnt?

Do I have it at the right torque (the highest one, after 22, its a screw icon) and I tried both low and high. I got it to work a total of 2 times which is what is so odd.

If I have to pre-drill, what size should I use?

Should I try 1 5/8" nails? #6 instead of #8? Current ones is #8, 1 1/4". I can't afford to pay a pro and it has to be done this weekend....plus the floor plus .... I'm trying not to panic.
 
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Old 04-21-17, 02:53 AM
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I think 22 is the highest setting [the numbers are worn off of my drill] On the lowest setting you should be able to hold onto the collar and stop the drill from spinning. I don't ever recall the clutch engaging on the highest setting. My previous cordless drill was a 9.6 volt and I've been amazed at how well my 19.2 volt drill works, it's almost as stout as a corded drill when the battery has a full charge. The drill should do most of the work, no need to press extra hard. Not sure why your drill isn't working better. I've even drilled thru a steel bumper with mine.

I just had a dumb thought the drill is set to forward and not reverse, right?

Have you tried the nails? Nails don't hold as well as screws but that is probably what the majority of drywall is put up with. Many will use adhesive like liquid nail to lessen the amount of fasteners needed but you still need nails or screws.
It shouldn't be this hard
 
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