2 pole GFCI Breaker
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2 pole GFCI Breaker
Guys:
Hoping someone can help me confirm something. I have two 15amp circuits that share a neutral.
I'm trying to add a GFCI breaker to protect a bathroom that is on one of the circuits.
From what I have read, I can replace the two 15amp breakers with a single two pole 15amp GFI breaker. They are expensive - but given the size of the bathroom, it is worth the expense to protect all the switches and outlets in the bathroom. I have young kids and they can easily touch three switches and the outlet from the sink with wet hands. (Also - the breakers are not currently tied together in tandem - so I almost fried my ass by working on one of the circuits before realizing they shared a neutral).
Also - the pigtail will not reach the neutral bar. I plan to wirenut a splice to extend. It appears to be 12 gauge wire on the pigtail.
Any tips, advice, or concerns would be helpful.
Hoping someone can help me confirm something. I have two 15amp circuits that share a neutral.
I'm trying to add a GFCI breaker to protect a bathroom that is on one of the circuits.
From what I have read, I can replace the two 15amp breakers with a single two pole 15amp GFI breaker. They are expensive - but given the size of the bathroom, it is worth the expense to protect all the switches and outlets in the bathroom. I have young kids and they can easily touch three switches and the outlet from the sink with wet hands. (Also - the breakers are not currently tied together in tandem - so I almost fried my ass by working on one of the circuits before realizing they shared a neutral).
Also - the pigtail will not reach the neutral bar. I plan to wirenut a splice to extend. It appears to be 12 gauge wire on the pigtail.
Any tips, advice, or concerns would be helpful.
#4
You can install a 2 pole 15 amp GFCI circuit breaker, but I wouldn't. Doing that will leave someone in the dark in the bathroom if the GFCI trips. I would install GFCI receptacles in the bathroom and then install a hande tie on the two 15 amp breakers. The NEC requires a common disconnect on a multiwire branch circuit, but not common trip.
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Thanks Joe, completely agree. That was my original plan - but when I opened the outlet I found 3 12/2 wires + grounds. I didn't spend a lot of time trying to trace it out, but I didn't have much confidence that I could wire everything back together correctly, and fit everything in the box. (The box was tight with a regular outlet and no wirenuts or pigtails). There is also a three gang box (2 lights and a fan) about 5 inches from the outlet. All this is about 10 inches from the sink where my kids splash around. So there is a lot going on is a small space.
So I figure I will try the overkill approach first and try to protect it all - if the breaker doesn't run well, I'll eat the cost of the breaker and have a pro put in an outlet.
Thanks guys - learning here....
So I figure I will try the overkill approach first and try to protect it all - if the breaker doesn't run well, I'll eat the cost of the breaker and have a pro put in an outlet.
Thanks guys - learning here....
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Well - just an update if anyone is still following. I wired it up and the breaker tripped immediately. There was a minimal load on the circuits (digital clock and a nightlight).
Later, my wife pointed out a flicker in a ceiling fixture that I have to check out anyway (I thought the bulb blew - but it is really an intermittent flicker). I am hoping this is a short that caused the GFI breaker to trip. I was in the process of replacing outlets - they are backstab types, and some neutral connections were loose. I'm slow - it takes forever to replace them because they are "half hot" and wired to switches (bedrooms).
Questions:
1. Since I have to replace outlets anyway, is this worth the effort to check continuity with a meter (neutral to ground?) to narrow this down to a part of the circuit? I'm not sure this will tell me anything since everything works (except for the light that is).
2. Is one of those plug in testers going to tell me anything?
Thanks guys.
Later, my wife pointed out a flicker in a ceiling fixture that I have to check out anyway (I thought the bulb blew - but it is really an intermittent flicker). I am hoping this is a short that caused the GFI breaker to trip. I was in the process of replacing outlets - they are backstab types, and some neutral connections were loose. I'm slow - it takes forever to replace them because they are "half hot" and wired to switches (bedrooms).
Questions:
1. Since I have to replace outlets anyway, is this worth the effort to check continuity with a meter (neutral to ground?) to narrow this down to a part of the circuit? I'm not sure this will tell me anything since everything works (except for the light that is).
2. Is one of those plug in testers going to tell me anything?
Thanks guys.
#7
How did you wire the breaker ? Did you move the circuit neutral to the breaker or leave it on the bus bar?
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CasualJoe
You can install a 2 pole 15 amp GFCI circuit breaker, but I wouldn't. Doing that will leave someone in the dark in the bathroom if the GFCI trips. I would install GFCI receptacles in the bathroom and then install a hande tie on the two 15 amp breakers. The NEC requires a common disconnect on a multiwire branch circuit, but not common trip.
You can install a 2 pole 15 amp GFCI circuit breaker, but I wouldn't. Doing that will leave someone in the dark in the bathroom if the GFCI trips. I would install GFCI receptacles in the bathroom and then install a hande tie on the two 15 amp breakers. The NEC requires a common disconnect on a multiwire branch circuit, but not common trip.
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update 2. found an outlet with the hot and neutral reversed. I think this is the first outlet in the run from the panel.
not sure this would impact the breaker thought - the neutrals were pigtailed, just to the wrong side of the outlet. the switch leg (it's a half hot plug) was jacked up - actually inserted incorrectly in the backstab connector.
also the box was lined with fiberglass insulation. good times, fire everywhere.
it looked funny - outlet was upside down - so I figured someone messed with it.
maybe this was the problem - hopefully.
not sure this would impact the breaker thought - the neutrals were pigtailed, just to the wrong side of the outlet. the switch leg (it's a half hot plug) was jacked up - actually inserted incorrectly in the backstab connector.
also the box was lined with fiberglass insulation. good times, fire everywhere.
it looked funny - outlet was upside down - so I figured someone messed with it.
maybe this was the problem - hopefully.
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CasualJoe
Sure it will, but the neutral conductors in the box must be pigtailed and only the pigtail connected to the GFCI receptacle.
Sure it will, but the neutral conductors in the box must be pigtailed and only the pigtail connected to the GFCI receptacle.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]70797[/ATTACH]
Last edited by pattenp; 09-12-16 at 02:40 PM.
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Guys:
New topic - I broke the plastic around the neutral screw. The screws are torqued way down and it cracked in my hand.
The vendor won't take it back - because I "tried to install it." I called Square D, and they basically said the warranty claim has to go through the vendor. After spending a half hour on it, I gave up and filed a claim with the credit card company.
So word of warning - buy your Square D parts from a reputable parts place or your warranty claim will be a pain.
New topic - I broke the plastic around the neutral screw. The screws are torqued way down and it cracked in my hand.
The vendor won't take it back - because I "tried to install it." I called Square D, and they basically said the warranty claim has to go through the vendor. After spending a half hour on it, I gave up and filed a claim with the credit card company.
So word of warning - buy your Square D parts from a reputable parts place or your warranty claim will be a pain.
#14
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Did you read the warranty?
Square D/Schneider Electric warrants its branch circuit breakers to be free from defects in material and workmanship under normal care and proper usage in a residential installation, for the lifetime of the load center in which it is installed.
Doesn't seem like a Square D or vendor issue.
Square D/Schneider Electric warrants its branch circuit breakers to be free from defects in material and workmanship under normal care and proper usage in a residential installation, for the lifetime of the load center in which it is installed.
Doesn't seem like a Square D or vendor issue.
#15
The torque does not need to very overly tight. If you broke the plastic it was most likely too tight and could have created a hot connection.
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troubleshooting GFI breaker
Hi guys:
So I'm trying to troubleshoot a GFI breaker that trips instantly with very little load. Here is the procedure from the manufacturer. I was hoping that someone could clarify.
...leave the white load wire disconnected from breaker and go to the first junction and disconnect the neutrals and grounds and measure resistance across neutral and ground and see what side of the junction the problem is on
the red text is confusing me. I'm assuming this means use a multimeter to test continuity to the neutral and ground at each outlet. how does one disconnect the ground? most are bonded together with a copper clamp at each outlet - and frankly I don't want to mess with them and create more problems. will disconnecting only the neutral work?
we are talking about twelve outlets here all with backstab connections. I have replaced about 5 and am quickly losing patience. next step is the attic to look for other junctions.
any tips that can shorten this process would be helpful.
So I'm trying to troubleshoot a GFI breaker that trips instantly with very little load. Here is the procedure from the manufacturer. I was hoping that someone could clarify.
...leave the white load wire disconnected from breaker and go to the first junction and disconnect the neutrals and grounds and measure resistance across neutral and ground and see what side of the junction the problem is on
the red text is confusing me. I'm assuming this means use a multimeter to test continuity to the neutral and ground at each outlet. how does one disconnect the ground? most are bonded together with a copper clamp at each outlet - and frankly I don't want to mess with them and create more problems. will disconnecting only the neutral work?
we are talking about twelve outlets here all with backstab connections. I have replaced about 5 and am quickly losing patience. next step is the attic to look for other junctions.
any tips that can shorten this process would be helpful.
#18
I am assuming this is a continuation of http://www.doityourself.com/forum/el...i-breaker.html
GFCI's don't trip on overload. They trip on ground fault, so it appears you have a fault in the circuit causing it to trip. Is it a single GFCI or double GFCI? Since the ground will be still attached to the buss, testing for resistance will determine if the fault is in the neutral or not. Disconnecting the neutral from the breaker and obtaining a reading with a multimeter in ohms mode will indicate a fault.
GFCI's don't trip on overload. They trip on ground fault, so it appears you have a fault in the circuit causing it to trip. Is it a single GFCI or double GFCI? Since the ground will be still attached to the buss, testing for resistance will determine if the fault is in the neutral or not. Disconnecting the neutral from the breaker and obtaining a reading with a multimeter in ohms mode will indicate a fault.
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it's a double. so once the neutral is disconnected at the panel any continuity shown between neutral and ground would indicate a neutral/ground fault correct?
my problem is narrowing the fault down. I believe it is somewhere in the attic space, based upon a test I did near the end of the circuit - which showed continuity from neutral to ground (the neutral was disconnected from the panel run).
here is another piece to the puzzle. since I couldn't get the breaker to work, I installed a GFCI OUTLET in a bathroom. on the load side I tried to connect the feed to a 3 gang box (two lights and a fan). the OUTLET tripped immediately. (it works fine with nothing connected to the load screws). this leads me to believe the fault is somewhere downstream (ie - the attic, where the run goes next). is this a bad assumption?
my problem is narrowing the fault down. I believe it is somewhere in the attic space, based upon a test I did near the end of the circuit - which showed continuity from neutral to ground (the neutral was disconnected from the panel run).
here is another piece to the puzzle. since I couldn't get the breaker to work, I installed a GFCI OUTLET in a bathroom. on the load side I tried to connect the feed to a 3 gang box (two lights and a fan). the OUTLET tripped immediately. (it works fine with nothing connected to the load screws). this leads me to believe the fault is somewhere downstream (ie - the attic, where the run goes next). is this a bad assumption?
#22
the OUTLET tripped immediately. (it works fine with nothing connected to the load screws). this leads me to believe the fault is somewhere downstream (ie - the attic, where the run goes next). is this a bad assumption?
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Thanks for the help. I think I have a plan. I can't believe how much stuff is branched off this one run.
Last couple questions - should I bother to remove light bulbs when testing continuity?
Unrelated - the screws on the levitron outlets I bought are an odd size. anyone know what to use? I'm killing them with a flathead - but #2 phillips doesn't seem to work either.
Last couple questions - should I bother to remove light bulbs when testing continuity?
Unrelated - the screws on the levitron outlets I bought are an odd size. anyone know what to use? I'm killing them with a flathead - but #2 phillips doesn't seem to work either.