Best way to add circuits to my panel?


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Old 05-29-18, 02:30 PM
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Best way to add circuits to my panel?

Hello, glad I found this forum and hoping to get some general advice.

I want to add dedicated 240v and 120v receptacles in my garage. Standard two-car garage suburban house.

The garage currently has three 120v duplex outlets, none of these are on dedicated circuits, two are on the same circuit as receptacles in one bedroom and the other with another bedroom.

I've attached pictures of my panel, it's located on the outside of the house by the meter, unfortunately on the opposite side of the house from the garage. The house was built in the late 80's.

The small 120v air compressor I'm using now sometimes trips the breaker when trying to restart automatically, the breaker that trips is the top red 20 amp one in the pictures. Why do those two breakers have red switches?

I'm not sure how the pictures will show up, I've got them here full size if you want to look closer.
https://linkpro.net/piwigo/index.php/category/2

Direct link to large image of panel label


Thanks for any help, I will probably get an electrician to do the actual work but would love to understand my options beforehand.
 
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Old 05-29-18, 02:53 PM
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Hi, the easy part of the question is the Red handle breakers are the mfg. choice for 20 Amp breakers, the other problem is that panel looks to small to add the circuits you want, especially for the 240 volt circuit which will require a 2 pole breaker or 2 spaces in the panel, looks like a sub panel will be required.

Geo
 
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Old 05-29-18, 03:44 PM
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Thanks Geo, I'm hoping there is a way.

Reading about these split-bus panels I'm wondering if I couldn't add a 20 or 30 amp double-pole breaker in one of the two unused spaces in the top bus? That would still be only five of a maximum six throws for service disconnects. Or am I misunderstanding those limits?
 
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Old 05-29-18, 03:59 PM
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Looks like room at the top for 2 1pole breakers, you may be able to swap some circuits around to make room for a 2 pole breaker ,I might move the 2 red handle breakers up to the to spaces and put the new 2 pole in that spot, you will then need to install a couple of Twin breakers elsewhere.
Remember the 20 amp outlets in the garage must have GFCI protection.
Geo
 
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Old 05-29-18, 04:14 PM
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Looks like room at the top for 2 1pole breakers,
Do you mean at the top of the lower bus section? Or at the top of the service disconnect section? Here are large versions of the open panel and the diagram.

https://www.linkpro.net/piwigo/uploa...3-fe5d698f.jpg

https://www.linkpro.net/piwigo/uploa...7-1c316f32.jpg


 
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Old 05-29-18, 04:33 PM
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One each above the AC and the Dryer breakers. That is not your service disconnect, you must have a main breaker somewhere else.
Geo
 
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Old 05-29-18, 04:44 PM
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Keep in mind the 60 amp breaker feeds the bottom "lighting and appliance" bus. So any significant 240v load should go on the top bus.
The diagram shows the bottom breakers with a - so those can be replaced with tandems.

For buying new breakers you can see from the label to use Bryant BR/BRD (now Eaton) or Murray MP/MM - Any new Murray tandems are MH are not technically correct. Found UL letter saying they are OK.
 

Last edited by Astuff; 05-29-18 at 06:35 PM.
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Old 05-29-18, 04:47 PM
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Geo - No separate main as that is a split bus panel. Top section can have up to 6 "throws of the hand" and was legal for being the service disconnect.
 
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Old 05-29-18, 04:49 PM
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One each above the AC and the Dryer breakers. That is not your service disconnect, you must have a main breaker somewhere else.
I don't think so, but maybe I'm misunderstanding everything. Here is a pic with the cover on and one showing how it's connected directly to the meter.

https://www.linkpro.net/piwigo/upload/2018/05/29/20180529145525-405b4a18.jpg

https://www.linkpro.net/piwigo/uploa...9-7e80cac5.jpg



 
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Old 05-29-18, 05:13 PM
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You may have up to 6 breakers in the top "Service Disconnect" section of the panel which would comply with the "6 throw" rule. Below assumes garage is attached.

I would recommend installing a larger sized two pole breaker (30 - 60 amps) and install a sub panel next to your main panel, or run a feeder into the garage to feed a panel inside the garage. (or both since you have no more spaces in the main panel and already have one tandem installed) Then come off the sub panel for the circuits you need for your garage.
 
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Old 05-29-18, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Astuff
Keep in mind the 60 amp breaker feeds the bottom "lighting and appliance" bus. So any significant 240v load should go on the top bus.
The diagram shows the bottom breakers with a - so those can be replaced with tandems.

For buying new breakers you can see from the label to use Bryant BR/BRD (now Eaton) or Murray MP/MM - Any new Murray tandems are MH are not technically correct.
Thanks Astuff,

So could I add a 30 amp double-pole at the top (position 4) as a service disconnect like the dryer at position 2, and then replace the top of the two breakers with red switches (position 9/10) with a tandem 20 amp breaker. ?

Then I'd need the wires for the two new breakers to run directly to the garage through the attic (about 50 feet) connecting to appropriate new receptacles.

Would this be correct for the 240? https://www.homedepot.com/p/Eaton-BR...R230/100114666

I'm not sure what you meant about the Murrays, could you point me to the correct (and legal) 120 tandem breaker for this panel?
 
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Old 05-29-18, 06:01 PM
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Sorry for miss info, I must be retired to long, but the Murrays refer to the breaker mfg. that can be used in that panel, line 2 on the panel cover lists the approved breakers for that panel.
Geo
 
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Old 05-29-18, 06:34 PM
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Lots of confusion on new breakers for old panels. Here are the options that I see.

For tandem - https://www.homedepot.com/p/Eaton-BD...2020/100124683 - it shows "Type BRD" printed on breaker.

New Murray tandems are type MH which aren't shown on your panel label. *I found UL letter saying MH-T are ok so you could use https://www.homedepot.com/p/Murray-2...020U/202315527

Murray 30amp full size would be https://www.homedepot.com/p/Murray-3...230U/202315524 - type MP-T which should be close enough to MP. Not sure but I think Murray or UL sent out a letter saying MP and MP-T were interchangeable for listings.

QP is now Siemens so their 30 amp - https://www.homedepot.com/p/Siemens-...230U/100002289

Also "classified" breakers - https://www.homedepot.com/p/Eaton-CL...L230/205308274 - your panel (LW612) is not on the list that they tested for but most would give you a pass
 

Last edited by Astuff; 05-29-18 at 07:00 PM.
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Old 05-29-18, 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Tolyn Ironhand
I would recommend installing a larger sized two pole breaker (30 - 60 amps) and install a sub panel next to your main panel, or run a feeder into the garage to feed a panel inside the garage. (or both since you have no more spaces in the main panel and already have one tandem installed) Then come off the sub panel for the circuits you need for your garage.
Thanks, please help me understand that option and all the pieces needed.

Yes, this is an attached front load garage on a house about 60 feet wide. Looking at the house from the front the meter and electrical panel and on the left side exterior and the garage is on the right side.

It would actually be nice to have the circuit breakers on a panel inside the garage to be able to shut them off without walking all the way around outside, usually in the rain or dark to get to a breaker.

So if I want to end up with both a 120 volt 20 amp circuit (3 or 4 outlets) and a 240 volt 30 amp circuit (single outlet) in the garage, would I add a double-pole 50 amp breaker as a service disconnect (labeled Garage), then the wiring for the sub-panel to the garage would look like the example in the stickies here?



If that is right, could you help me understand the other pieces to get a bill of materials.
I have a bad feeling this is adding up to more money than I want to spend. I'm assuming this would require pulling a permit and to be inspected to be completely legal.
 
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Old 05-29-18, 07:35 PM
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You have space above the current breakers for two more two pole breakers. This is a split bus panel that falls under the 6 throws rule.

8-3 NM is good for 40 amps, not 50.
 
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Old 05-30-18, 05:18 PM
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You are mixing breakers again. You need to use the proper breaker for the panel that is installed.

50 amp double-pole breaker for main panel https://www.homedepot.com/p/Eaton-BR...R250/100125397 You may have #8 on a 50 amp breaker if you run individual THHN wires. (see below)

#8 copper for 50 amp breaker THHN in PVC. I would suggest installing the panel on the other side of the wall of the existing panel and using PVC conduit and/or fittings (LB's, 90's, etc.) This will save you money on the wire and you could run individual wires instead of a cable, as long as the conduit run is continuous, which will also be cheaper. You will need two blacks, one white and one #10 green for the ground.

Surface mount sub Panel 50 amp with space for 30 amp double-pole and 20 amp single-pole for garage wall. https://www.homedepot.com/p/Murray-6...02GS/202253181
That panel is too small in my opinion and doesn't leave you much room for later. I would recommend an 8 space panel or larger. https://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-D...25PC/204836381 or https://www.homedepot.com/p/Eaton-BR...5FDP/100161980 The panel can have a larger amp rating then the breaker protecting it, just not smaller. It also doesn't need to be a surface mount.

Match breaker type with whatever panel you install.

Yes, you are likely required to pull a permit. Check with you local city.
 
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Old 05-30-18, 07:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Tolyn Ironhand
You are mixing breakers again.
Probably, and thanks for all your info. I have a tendency to way overthink and get sidetracked thinking about possibilities.

If I can back up a few steps, all I really have to have is a single 240 volt 20 amp outlet for a 30 gallon air compressor, that's what started me down this rabbit hole.

My electrical panel is on the outside of the house and the garage is on the opposite side of the house. The attic is clear, wire/cable can easily be run over to the inside wall of the garage and finished to a new outlet.

So couldn't I just add a 20 amp double-pole breaker to the box, run the wire and install an outlet? I'm not sure what's legal as far as getting the wires from the box, up through the soffit into the attic and over to the garage. Can that be romex in the attic? Need some kind of pipe/conduit between the panel on the outside wall and three or four feet up through the soffit?

Anyway, I'll find out what a local electrician suggests, just good to understand what he says.

 
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Old 05-30-18, 09:28 PM
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So couldn't I just add a 20 amp double-pole breaker to the box, run the wire and install an outlet?
Yes you can.
You can have 2 more breakers on top. It may be single or 2 pole, but cannot have more since you already have 4 breakers.

The cheapest route for you will be adding 1 2 pole breaker and 1 single pole breaker for your 240V and 120V circuits.
It would be even better if you install a sub panel in the garage as others suggested, but if you don't plan on having any more circuits, there is no need to.

Your other option is to replace some breakers at the bottom with tandem breakers to free up some spaces, then install breakers for new circuits. This route will cost more since you will have to replace more breakers.


I'm not sure what's legal as far as getting the wires from the box, up through the soffit into the attic and over to the garage.
It is safe as long as it is done right.

Can that be romex in the attic?
Yes. You can run romex (NM-b) in the attic, but you cannot run romex on the exterior wall.

Need some kind of pipe/conduit between the panel on the outside wall and three or four feet up through the soffit?
You can run UF-b all the way to the outlet without a conduit.
You may also choose to sleeve the UF-b cable in a conduit along exterior wall, but not required.
You may use THWN (individual wires) in the conduit, but then, either you have to put a junction box in the attic to splice to NM-b rest of the way or run the conduit all the way to the outlet.
 
 

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