Super Tuff R adhesive


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Old 10-25-19, 03:37 PM
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Super Tuff R adhesive

what type of adhesive should I use to attach Super Tuff R to interior basement wall. I was planning on putting the foil side up agaist the cemetn ( Blue side facing in toward room.
 
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Old 10-25-19, 05:15 PM
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Will you be covering the inside surface? Most rigid foam boards require a thermal barrier to the inside such as drywall. The only foil faced rigid foam certified to be left exposed is Dow Thermax. Whether a local inspector would accept the Tuff R foil facing is a question you would have to ask them.

I generally use Loctite construction adhesive in the large tubes.

Bud
 
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Old 10-25-19, 05:31 PM
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I'd probably use PL300 foam adhesive.
 
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Old 10-25-19, 07:18 PM
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I am putting up a standard 2 by 4 frame inside the Tuff R and will finish with drywall. Along one wall the framing will be about 6 inches from the cement wall finished with Tuff R. ( beacuse of piping.) I was hoping to avoid traditional caulk. Leaning toward Enerbond foam adhesive and Greatstuff Pro Wall and floor adhesive. I was told that the Enerbond might be better, but it is hard to find.
Thoughts/comments, please.
 
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Old 10-25-19, 07:25 PM
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Not Mister Hand

Does the Loctite 300 use a foam type of gun, or a caulking gun? Also,remember I am planning to put the foil side to the wall ( the blue side also is apparently got some type of foil covering, but looks more like blue styrofoam in the pictures.
 
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Old 10-25-19, 07:58 PM
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PL300 is in a caulking tube. If you plan on using a foam gun you will need to brace the panels flat against the wall or the foam will push your tuff-r away from the wall as it expands.
 
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Old 10-25-19, 09:27 PM
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Not Mister Hand

The Enerbond is a very slow expanding foam, used for adhesive properties more than for sealing. The Loctite says it is good/safe for all "unfaced" rigid foam board. The super Tuff R has the foil outer shell over the foam board. I think that makes it Faced.Super Tuff R seems more like Thermax than an XPS foam. Does all that sound right ?
 
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Old 10-25-19, 10:27 PM
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The Loctite says it is good/safe for all "unfaced" rigid foam board.
The reason they say that it is "safe" is because some adhesives contain solvents that will dissolve unfaced insulation. You can use PL300 on both faced AND unfaced foam board insulation.


One side of super tuff-r is faced, but it is not the same type or quality of foil as what's on Thermax. (Thus, no fire rating) The other side is just like dow r-board... blue Styrofoam with a thin poly layer over it, if I recall.
 
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Old 10-26-19, 09:19 AM
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I was planning on putttiing the foil side against the cement wall. Is this OK ?
 
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Old 10-26-19, 10:02 AM
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Technically, the reflective side should face an air gap for it to work as a radiant barrier but in the grand scheme of things it probably doesn't matter.
 
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Old 10-26-19, 11:02 AM
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Thank you so much. I appreciate your input and the quick responses. If I put the foil side to the wall, I was thinking I could/should use the same type of adhesive that is used for the foil face Thermax. That would be Enerbond Pro foam adhesive or perhaps the Great stuff pro wall and floor adhesive. Oddly, they are both made by Dow/Dupont and the insallation instructions seem to be identical. They both say 1 can is equal 16 tubes of traditional caulk.
 
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Old 10-26-19, 01:46 PM
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Foil Facing

Do you think the foil facing on Super Tuff is the same as that on Thermax ( at least the foil side) ?
 
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Old 10-26-19, 03:15 PM
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I already said its that it's not.
 
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Old 10-26-19, 04:16 PM
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You are right- my mistake. I'm doing this research for my son and want to make certain I give him good ideas/advice. I wish I could find Thermax locally, but can't. I thought Super Tuff R would be the next closest thing. The more I research, however, the more confused I get. Some sites say polysio should not be used below grade. Do you think Dow Styro XPS is a better choice, or can I stick with Tuff R ? Thanks in advance.
 
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Old 10-26-19, 04:41 PM
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I believe Thermax is polyiso and it is definitely recommended for foundations.
As for below grade you must resolve all water issues before applying the rigid foam board.
My choice for the foil facing would be to leave it facing the interior as you are planning on a gap.
One detail I didn't see is the thickness of the rigid layer, sorry if I missed it. There is a ratio of rigid r-value vs interior insulation to ensure the interior surface of that rigid remains above the dew point. We also need the climate region of this foundation.

Bud
 
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Old 10-26-19, 06:42 PM
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The plan is to adhere the Super Tuff directly to the cement wall. On three of the walls, 2 x 4 framing will butt up against the Super Tuff. Those 3 walls will have 1 inc of Super Tuff. Mold/Midew resistant 1/2 inch Drywall ( purple stuff maybe) will be put on the framing. Note That one wall has the framing about half the length of the wall, so that wall has to stay with one inch. The one long wall ( about 50 feet) has sewage and other piping on it. That wall will get 2 inch Super TUFF. The 2 x 4 framing for that wall will be 6 inches out from the wall ( 4inches from the Tuff R), and then Drywall attached to that frame . I could change the Super Tuff from one inch to something else on the other two walls, but one inch is the plan for now. I've read conflicting thoughts on polysio- that it doesn't let the cement wall to dry from the inside, but it is much better in terms of toxic emissions than EP or XPS foam board. Some of the posts/comments on other sites are older ( 2013 and earlier), some are more current.
The basement seems very dry and warm, with no visible signs of water on any of the walls. Last week, the temperature was 67-68 degrees and humidity about 55%. The house is in the Rochester NY area, so I think it is zone 6. The soil in the yard seems very sandy ( it only about 6 miles from Lake Ontario). I think the sand helps block or dissipate ground water.
Again, I'm doing this research for My son. I already have the Super Tuff ordered, but can always change that. Just don't want mold/mildew issues down the road if he ever chooses to sell. If I give bad advice, I'm in big trouble. Hope that the TUFF R is an appropriate choice. If not please give me your honest opinion on the best choice and approach.
 
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Old 10-26-19, 07:50 PM
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It wasn't that ;ong ago that they were saying we needed some drying to the inside. But they changed their minds when it came to Thermax as it can be installed without anything covering it. They said concrete doesn't mind staying wet. I can dig up a citation is needed.

This link, page 9, has the typical zone requirements for exterior rigid insulation. Other links I normally use have been moved behind required sign up pages. Sorry I have not reviewed this entire link.

Also, here's a GBA article that may help you.

Bud
 
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Old 10-26-19, 08:22 PM
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Bud- Thank you very much. Amazing how the thinking changes over time ( for many things). The GBA article has eased my mind about using the Super TUFF R. I like that it is close to a true vapor barrier, unlike XPS. Between the Tuff R and half inch mold resistant drywall, I think the R value should be fine. The house was built in the mid fifties. It doesn't have a french drain and does not have or ever needed well or a sump pump. I am still hoping to put the foil side to the cement wall so we can use Enerbond instead of caulk. One commentor mentioned that the foil on TUFF R is different than the foil on THERMAX, so using ENERbond might not be appropriate. Can you comment on that, please ? I will also try to check with Dow. I talked to customer service at a NJ insulation warehouse that sells Thermax ( but not TUFF R) and he said he thought the ENERbond would be fine. I hate the idea of caulk. One guy said he used about one tube of caulk for each 4' by 8' panel ! That sounds like overkill.
Thanks again.
 
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Old 10-28-19, 07:36 PM
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I just looked at the LOCTITE PL300 data sheet (link attached ). Note that under the Limitation section, it states:

"Will not bond to filmed faced foam insulation panels or polyethylene vapor barriers."

I don't know if that means the foil facing on Thermax and TUFF R, or something else. DOW specifically recommends PL300 for Super TUFF R ( and Thermax). What the Heck ?
https://dm.henkel-dam.com/is/content...-2018-03-26pdf
 
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Old 10-28-19, 07:53 PM
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One commentor mentioned that the foil on TUFF R is different than the foil on THERMAX, so using ENERbond might not be appropriate.
I don't know where you are getting that last part. The only thing I said about the foam was that you would likely want to brace it until the foam sets up so that you are sure to have a good bond.
 
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Old 10-29-19, 03:00 PM
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One last question. On one wall ( 50 Feet), the framing for drywall will not butt up against the TUFF R. I don't want to use any fasteners that drill holes in the wall. What do you think is the best adhesive to ensure the foam panels stay firmly attached to my cement wall ? Would it be worth it to nail some small 2x4 pieces to my drywaal frame on the back side and wedge them against the Foam board ? maybe 2 or 3 pieces on each vertical stud ( they are 16 inches on center.
Any other thoughts or ideas. I'm starting to fret too much.
 
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Old 10-29-19, 03:15 PM
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I'm starting to fret too much.
Starting? lol

Maybe take some scraps of 1/4" plywood or 1/8 tempered board and staple them to the sides of the studs here and there. The scraps can be tight against the foam to hold it back.

You're also supposed to fire block walls every 10 feet (measured horizontally). So you would be wise to put a drywall lid above your top plate before you begin. Then every 9 or 10 feet.
 
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Old 10-29-19, 08:14 PM
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Thank you. That sounds like a much better approach than what I was planning. Should I remove after the adhesive has set, or just leave them? Regarding fire block- I know, I know. The horizontal block is going to be a bit of a pain. My basement walls go up 5 1/2 feet, then there is a sill about 4 inches deep on a slight angle, then the wall goes up vertically another 16-18 inches. I actually have to cut my TUFF R panels and glue them separately on the two vertical sections. Thinking about just leaving the sill part uncovered. I'm going to test both the PL300 and the DOW ENERfoam Adheasive sealant on the smaller upper level to see which bonds best. Let you know the results.
 
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Old 10-29-19, 08:19 PM
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I'd leave them. Your fireblocking down the wall can be done in a similar manner... 1/2" drywall fastened to the side of a stud every 10 feet or so (112" on center works out best), notched to fit the shape of the wall as needed. Then use fire rated foam to fill any gaps behind.
 
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Old 10-30-19, 06:34 PM
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Where the foam boards have been cut, the edges are a little ragged. Should I put foil tape to cover those exposed edges . On top edge, floor edge, both, or neither ?
 
 

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