Toilet Installation when flange is sitting 1/2" above floor


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Old 04-21-17, 02:15 PM
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Toilet Installation when flange is sitting 1/2" above floor

Hi,

Just as the subject describes, I need to install a new toilet but the flange is sitting 1/2" above the floor, well subfloor.

The short story (spans years) is that it was supposed to be a tile floor & walls, contractor fired, but the hardibacker was already installed (floor & walls) so the new flange was set on top of it.

The hardi was removed so now the flange is sitting 1/2" above the subfloor. There are a lot of extenders if its too low but not a lot if its too high. I initially assumed I would find a floor that is 1/2" thick, install and viola, all good....but that's not the case.

I am planning to re-install the hardi(have the ones from the wall in garage) to get the floor level and install a new toilet. Sounds good?

I found a product called Oatey Toilet Base Plates but no video on how to use OR reviews on how reliable of a solution it is to stack them and place toilet on top to make up the height difference.

Any feedback would be appreciated. I have to get this installed this weekend, so the fastest option is best (aside from hiring a plumber lol!).
 
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Old 04-21-17, 02:26 PM
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Have you set your toilet over it yet? It will likely be fine unless your style of toilet needs a shorter flange.
 
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Old 04-21-17, 02:36 PM
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Hi XSleeper, I haven't even bought it yet....plan to later today or tomorrow. I have to install vinyl flooring first though. That's another thread I have to post.....I think.

So there are toilets that accommodate a higher flange? If so I feel happy & sad at the same time...I've worried and stressed about this issue for almost a month now....why oh why didn't I just post.

I'm leaning strongly towards American Standard Champion 4.
 
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Old 04-21-17, 02:48 PM
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I forgot to mention that the tub is sitting on a hardibacker, so if I want the floor(it is and there's peel&stick tile that won't come off) level...I think I have to put the 1/2 hardi back ?

Also how do I install it back (if this is the consensus), I'm assuming I have to make sure the flange is sitting on the hardibacker, right?
 

Last edited by diyIn2017; 04-21-17 at 03:12 PM.
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Old 04-21-17, 02:55 PM
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Cut the hardi back, add 1/2" BC plywood to the floor as an underlayment for your vinyl. End of worrying.
 
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Old 04-21-17, 03:52 PM
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Hi XSleeper!

Did I mention that I'm a newbie at this type of remodel work....I am very, very green. I'm currently stuck not being able to drive drywall screws in completely (I have another thread for that).

When I was looking to various options, and this plywood one seemed like a harder option for me....I'd have to cut it, well first buy/rent equipment to cut it, buy a table/sawhorse for lay it on, etc

With hardibacker, I see from videos that I should be able to just score it and I already have enough at home. BC plywood means rental truck, have to get brother to come help etc. Is using the hardibacker board not a viable option at all? If not, I'll start watching "how to cut various shapes of plywood(bath is 12X5,with a wall in between).

Thank you so much for your help, I am still over not posting earlier, not sure what I was thinking...

So once I install the plywood or hardi, I should be good? Also don't I have to cut out circles so that it can fit around the flange?
 
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Old 04-21-17, 04:01 PM
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You don't put vinyl over cement board.

You could use sheets of 1/4" underlayment. Buy it at a tile store... they should have 3x5 sheets that will fit in your car. You would just need a jig saw and air stapler.
 
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Old 04-21-17, 04:10 PM
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I don't have a current picture (hardi removed), but this is 1) with hardi (2) In process of removal as you can imagine, there is a 1/2" gap underneath the flange.

Would I have to use 2 separate pieces, carve out a semi-circle to make either one (ply vs hardi) fit underneath?

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Old 04-21-17, 04:13 PM
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Yes, peel and stick will not work on cement backer boards. You need to add the thickness of the plywood to raise the level of your subfloor so that you do not have issues with your flange. I cut plywood with a simple circular saw. $30 at harbor freight. You could also use a jig saw, a hand saw etc. You don't need a table saw.
 
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Old 04-21-17, 04:16 PM
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You need to support the flange on the existing plywood. I have done this with spacers to screw the flange tight. I have also used cut pieces of copper pipe to act as a large spacer. The hardi near the tub can be scored and snapped to remove. Leave what ever is under the tub.
 
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Old 04-21-17, 04:18 PM
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Normally you're not supposed to but if I'm getting "loose lay" sheet vinyl....it would just be laying over, right?

I know its unorthodox, but this is not a permanent thing. This is a "must get only bathroom up & running and plan from full teardown & remodel in 6-12 months" solution

Again, just thinking out loud and explaining how I came to this conclusion.
 
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Old 04-21-17, 04:24 PM
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You can not lay sheet vinyl over anything but a perfectly smooth surface. ANY imperfections under the vinyl will telegraph to the surface and you will see even a small speck of dirt through it. Standard practice is to put down at least a quality 1/4" underlayment and then skim all the nail holes and seams. This is not a major step to add thickness to the subfloor. I could do it in a couple of hours start to finish.
 
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Old 04-21-17, 05:09 PM
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You can not lay sheet vinyl over anything but a perfectly smooth surface. ANY imperfections under the vinyl will telegraph to the surface and you will see even a small speck of dirt through it. Standard practice is to put down at least a quality 1/4" underlayment and then skim all the nail holes and seams. This is not a major step to add thickness to the subfloor. I could do it in a couple of hours start to finish.
Hi czizzi,

Thanks for your feedback. First I'll admit that I need a little bit more "break it down step by step like I'm 5 years old", I think that's why I was too apprehensive to post initially. I think you replied to my Greenboard/tub surround thread and I'm stuck on a what should be a simple task of drywall, so I'm trying to be realistic with my abilities.

My rationale : I was wondering if the sheet vinyl could be layed over the hardibacker board. One of the things that came up in my research is that Hardibacker is not really 0.50", its 0.42 so I was thinking its better to go with what was underneath the flange in the 1st place. Other is hardi should be easier for me to score and cut without assistance from anyone else. The hardi would provide a smooth surface for the vinyl and I can get this done, hopefully by Monday.

The consensus seems to be plywood, but given what I mentioned above with hardi = 0.42" instead of 0.50", isn't 1/2 plywood is risky unless I'm not supposed to form-fit the plywood underneath the flange? I think that's what your Post#10 is saying? Also don't I need a table to place the plywood on??

Thanks again.
 
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Old 04-21-17, 05:21 PM
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1/2" ply is really 7/16" thick so that would be .4375 inches thick, so lets not split hairs. The surface of hardie is not smooth, it has a pattern stamped into it. You will be able to read the words and cross thatch pattern stamped into it through your vinyl after a couple of weeks. IMO, Hardie IS NOT easier to work with than plywood. You need a carbide tipped scoring tool, make a dozen passes over it and then it will snap.

You don't need a table, take a 2x4, put it on the ground so the plywood is up in the air and your saw blade clears the ground. One 2x4 so the cut end is up in the air (the rest of the board on the ground), sit on the side that on the ground side of the 2x4 and make a saw on the other side of the 2x4. I really believe you are over thinking this. You do follow the joists or previous plywood pattern and you are supposed to intentionally miss the joists when screwing the 2nd layer of plywood down. Use deck screws, not drywall screws.
 
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Old 04-21-17, 05:22 PM
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You need to support the flange on the existing plywood. I have done this with spacers to screw the flange tight. I have also used cut pieces of copper pipe to act as a large spacer. The hardi near the tub can be scored and snapped to remove. Leave what ever is under the tub.
Do you have a picture or link to these spacers? I'm trying to visual what you're saying....not sure I get it. I think you're saying fill in the space btw current plywood and flange with spacers and screw the flange to it to make it stable.

Then the new plywood will go around it? I would have to cut a circle the width of the flange? The flange will not resting on the new plywood.....at all?
 
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Old 04-21-17, 05:40 PM
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Correct, galvanized washers stacked under the flange attachment hole with a wood screw through the middle into the plywood to anchor the flange down in place. Do this on all 4 flange holes. You should be able to lift the flange slightly to get under it. It is this vertical movement that you need to arrest. The flange should be rock solid when done.

For the plywood, don't need to cut a circle, but maybe a hexagon style hole to clear the flange. Just ensure that your hole is not wider than the width of the toilet base itself.
 

Last edited by czizzi; 04-21-17 at 05:47 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 04-21-17, 05:54 PM
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I don't think I'm overthinking, every post sounds more complicated LOL! Did I mention I have a circluar saw that I've never even opened, I bought it during demo of the hardi for my brother to use. This is the time when a girl would wish that she had brothers to help....and I do... but oh well.

Here is a pic of the bath (has hardi), I have to make more than just straight cuts, I have to cut out the circle for the flange and one for the vent, also fit around that wall (it was L-shaped). Same saw method applicable? I don't think I understood it 100% but I keep on reading it...hardi just still sounds easier(there are not grooves on it).

Please understand that I appreciate your help, very much...its just a lot to absorb, learn and execute in 3 days...I'm listening, just nervous.

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Old 04-21-17, 06:08 PM
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Do you have any hand neighbors that you could bribe with a beer?

Think of the bath in terms of 2 rectangles. The rectangles would have a seam line that is right at the dividing wall. On the toilet side, you make your rectangle so that the edge is measured from the tub wall to the same side of the dividing wall. Then measure out for your toilet hole and your vent hole. Measure from multiple points. On a scrap piece of paper draw your rectangle with your cut outs. The toilet flange gets measured from 3 walls to the edge. The floor vent measured from two walls and then measure the rectangle hole itself. Write those measurements on your paper and then transfer those measurements to the plywood. First cut to the overall rectangle. For the cut outs, you will need to make what is called a PLUNGE CUT with a circular saw. I'm sure there are videos on it. That is why I said a hexagon cut out, a series of small plunge cuts. Same for the register. Usually you need to finish a plunge cut with a hand saw.

With the hard rectangle done, the larger one will be easy. Just a rectangle with the area where the dividing wall cut out and you are done.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rz0OgrP3Zk Here are your rectangles and cut outs.

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Last edited by czizzi; 04-21-17 at 06:34 PM. Reason: Add additional information
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Old 04-21-17, 06:50 PM
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There is still going to be 3 cuts (if I buy 1/2" 4X8) ...I think. The tub/flange areas measures under 4 ft..like 3.5ft, then the other side is 12ft (total)-2.5(tub)-4 = 5.5, also this other side is not going to be a proper rectangle. I guess the handsaw can do that.

I called around and Lowes might make cuts for free, so running out to talk to someone. Also there are 2X2, 2X8, 4X4 and 2X4 ....should I get a mix of these and just handsaw?



.....Edited : wait, did you just edit your post? I'll read it when I get back.
 
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Old 04-22-17, 07:46 AM
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Good news is that Home Depot and Lowes make straight cuts.

I have measurements :
Bathroom is 12 X 5 (144 X 60), but wall to wall the width is 59" (minus 0.5* 2 for drywall)
First rectangle is 46.5 X 59 (tub to wall)

Mid-wall is 4.625" X 32.375", its not even other side was 4.625 X 32.25...

The other rectangle (from carpet transition and stopping before the mid wall) is almost a square..
  • Measuring on the floor, the LHS drywall stops 0.5" above the floor is missing(probably cut out when the Hardi installed) so its 59.875" X 59.5
  • 59.875" X 59(wall to wall)

The length (144") only adds up to 141, so I could be off a bit (30(tub) + 46.5 + 59.875 + 4.625).

I could use 2 4X8:
  • cut to 46.5 X 59
  • cut to 59.875 X 59
  • use the remaining to fit the area around the wall?

All measurements were flush to wall, should I deduct 1/4" for spacing?

What do you think?
 
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Old 04-22-17, 10:49 AM
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You do follow the joists or previous plywood pattern and you are supposed to intentionally miss the joists when screwing the 2nd layer of plywood down. Use deck screws, not drywall screws.
I'm making my shopping list for later....
1) what length of desk screws 1" (new = 0.5, old = 5/8 or 1/2)? I didn't see anything shorter that 1".
2) galvanized washers, I see 1/2 on HD site good?
3)BC playwood 1/2" 4X8
4) Handsaw --- is that powered?


I think that's it....I have a circular saw and a reciprocating saw. I might go ahead and buy a sawhorse (this will act as a table and hold the plywood..right?).
 
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Old 04-22-17, 01:05 PM
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Looks like I had a typo, in my quote above it should read that you DO NOT follow the joists or previous plywood pattern.

Use two squares and leave the 4.625" piece attached to the other. Cut out the part that will be the existing wall.

1 1/4" deck screws will be fine

Yes, cut it short by a smidgen. Your baseboard molding will cover any gap. Just take that into consideration when making your plunge cuts

A hand saw is not powered
 
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Old 04-22-17, 03:52 PM
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Still working on drywall, so this will be a tomorrow thing hopefully.

Looks like I had a typo, in my quote above it should read that you DO NOT follow the joists or previous plywood pattern.

Use two squares and leave the 4.625" piece attached to the other. Cut out the part that will be the existing wall.
I know I'm tired but I didn't understand that...

How do I not follow the joists?

If I have to change the pattern of the plywood.....then I would be looking at each piece as a 8X4 vs 4 X 8? That means more cuts? more pieces?

I see what you mean on the square concept .... but for each 4X8, tub side takes up the entire 4 width and the ..vanity side need more than 4, so how will that work...unless you're saying the extra goes after the vanity?

I wanted to buy a sawhorse, decent quality but under $30, is the WORX brand good?
 
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Old 04-23-17, 09:19 AM
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GM czizzi,

I purchased the plywood at HD and plan to re-measure and get it cut later today. I did research to understand your last post and my initial ?s still hold.

If I reverse the pattern, then I have to look at each plywood as 8 X 4 instead of 4X8.
That means I will have to cut
  • tub area : 1 4X4s,
  • vanity area : 5X4.
  • and then strip of 9.5X1 to make up the 5ft width.....somehow this doesn't seem efficient?

HD guy said for a small space, not to worry?

I'm back to drywall...
 
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Old 04-23-17, 10:06 AM
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Do the vanity area as 48 x59 and have the break/seam underneath the vanity. Then piece meal in the 12 x 59 as it doesn't matter as it is under the vanity. Need not look pretty and there will be no pressure on it at all as the vanity is screwed to the studs and no weight will be on the plywood underneath the back.
 
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Old 04-23-17, 03:19 PM
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I wish I saw your post earlier....but just got out of bathroom drywal work!

How about the tub area? I am going to assume not around the toilet flange? It will be missing the same 12X59 ....but if we're going with 8 X 4 then it will only be for 12 X 48 + another 12 X 12 in order to keep the opposite pattern requirement.

Same with vanity, it will be 2 pieces : 12 X 48 + another 12 X 12 in order to keep the pattern.

I don't understand how this is more structurally sound?

I was hoping to get it cut today, but I'll wait on your response.
 
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Old 04-23-17, 03:57 PM
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Please figure a way to draw out your measurements on all floor dimensions and scan them into your computer and upload them. I want a schematic just like the one I sent earlier with all measurements so I can turn around and give you a final answer, in picture form. For some reason we are not syncing in our discussions.
 
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Old 04-23-17, 04:28 PM
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Yes, I will. I was thinking the same thing...when I realized I hadn't accounted for the mid wall area...4.625" has to be added to either side

HD trip & floor work tonight will have to be postponed. Working plumbing drywall, hope to finish tonight, re-take measurements and send you a schema.

So for securing the tolier flange, I got the galvanized washers....so I will stack them and drive a plywood screw (1 5/8") through ? Yes? I can work on that tomorrow if work permits.
 
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Old 04-23-17, 04:37 PM
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Screw should be galvanized so that it will not rust out. Again, look to deck screws which are designed for exterior use and will hold up to moisture in a bathroom.
 
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Old 04-23-17, 07:52 PM
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Yes, I did buy deck screws already for the subfloor.

Does the size matter? I got #8 1" for the subfloor since you said its not supposed to hit the joist. This should work for toilet too?
 
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Old 04-23-17, 11:19 PM
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Here is a rough sketch:

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Old 04-24-17, 06:31 AM
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Thank you for the schematic, here are your cuts and how they fit in the bathroom. "X" on the diagram indicates scrap material that is not needed.

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Old 04-24-17, 11:47 AM
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Thanks! So A will be the same pattern as current subfloor, while B will be opposite...

I took all measurements end to end, should I deduct 1/4 for expansion (1/8 on each side) or 1/2 (1/4 on each side). Given what happened with drywall, in this case I'll rather it be shorter than have more pieces to trim...... I really should have bought a laser measuring tape or something
 

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Old 04-24-17, 12:09 PM
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BTW so ....could I use a reciprocating saw for the cutouts.....HD guy mentioned this and I was watching some of seejanedrill(plunge cut video) and she mentioned using it for plunge cuts. I'm still hoping I can get HD to do those for me lol!
 
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Old 04-24-17, 01:21 PM
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Your stock has to be perfectly clamped down to use a reciprocating saw as it will bite and bounce the stock all around. Go slow and be safe. Measure twice (or 3 times ) to make sure your cut outs are in the right spot. You need really only deduct 1/2" on the length measurements as you can slide the ply under the drywall when installing. However, you want to make sure the cut out is covered by the base molding when complete. That gives you an additional 1/2" all the way around.

So A will be the same pattern as current subfloor, while B will be opposite...
"A" is slightly different as it looks like some patchwork has been done. "B" will be fine. Normally you lay plywood perpendicular to the joists, but there is some slack on the second layer. Screw it down every 6" on the edges and 8" in the field approximately every 16" in the middle of the board. You don't need to plan to hit the floor joists with your screws, just make sure it is screwed well to the first layer of plywood. There is science behind this and has to do with expansion and contraction of two different pieces of wood.

As a side note, run some screws (I know your favorite task) into the first layer of plywood to make sure it is well adhered to the floor joists before putting on the second layer. This helps eliminate squeaks in the floor down the road.
 
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Old 04-24-17, 01:25 PM
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You can make a template out of newspaper so you get the position of your toilet and air vent correct. Tape together newspaper and cut it to the size of your plywood marked "A" on the diagram. Go into the bathroom and lay that newspaper on the floor and cut out the exact locations of the holes in the floor. Then take the news paper back to the plywood, lay it out and copy your hole locations onto the plywood for your plunge cuts.

This might be a good idea for your shower wall panel as well.
 
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Old 04-27-17, 05:41 AM
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Hi czizzi,

Quick update:

Haven't been able to do anything all week.....busy with work(12+ days). , not even to watch videos of plunges cuts to get comfortable. HD is still holding my purchase..no time to even pick it up.
 
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Old 04-27-17, 04:31 PM
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The project will move at its own pace. When you try to rush or take short cuts, that is when errors will be made. Relax, enjoy life and dive back in when time permits. We will still be here to help.
 
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Old 04-28-17, 08:35 AM
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True but I'm on a timeline .

Anyway, still nervous about plunge cuts. I'll start watching videos to get comfortable.

Among my HD pickup order is a sawhorse & some 2X4s...how would I balance the pre-cut planks on the 2x4s to cut out the flange/vent/wall-area? HD only makes straight cuts. I can use the sawhorse but I looked at my charges....if I can save....


For the toliet & vent, I did measure their positions in respect to the wall & tub on both ends. I was going to place it in the original schema but no time to do that....couldn't find a free tool to use. I'll use the newspaper method and take it to HD....just in case I can convinced someone to help me cut it out

1) I think you didn't confirm the size of the deck screws
(a) for toilet ....I assume must go thru subfloor which is 5/8
(b) 2nd subfloor..I got 1" so it will not reach joists 1/2" + (1/2 or 5/8 existing)
so a box of #8 1" galvanized deck screws should cover both?
 
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Old 04-28-17, 12:05 PM
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Third try

Original Plywood 1st layer - 1 5/8" deck screws into the joists

Second Plywood Layer - 1 5/8" deck screws DO NOT HIT JOISTS

Find someone with a jig saw to cut out the holes and forget about plunge cuts if you are not comfortable. No one at HD will help you on hole cuts.
 
 

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