Flooring for Rental Property


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Old 05-17-16, 03:40 AM
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Flooring for Rental Property

I have removed about a 900 sq ft of carpet. Yuck!

We are planning to replace it with tile (wood look). We have decided to stay away from laminate flooring since we have concerns about water spills.

I was researching tonight "Tile vs Laminate", and a new search popped up: luxury vinyl plank

https://parterreflooring.com/vinyl-t...-ceramic-tile/

From my research, it is very cost effective and easy installation. It is also durable and water resistance. LVT plank is new to America from my research. It has been in Europe for a while. I don't know the level of durability and scratch resistance. I have read that they pop up over time and regardless, they are still considered cheap looking.

The tile and thinset that we will be buying are at huge discount since we know the owner. We are getting porcelain tiles for about $1.50 sq ft. The only Cons for tiles are cracking (earthquake) and takes longer (to install or to remove). Grout maintenance is also a pain too but honestly, I found a product from the Orange box store that seals grout super well. I am not so concern with grout.

The wife wants to stick with tiles. I am planning to do the job myself since I have laid tiles many times. The job will probably take me about 8-10 days. However, I want to stick with what is cost effective and durable because if this is a viable solution, I want to implement this for future and other properties. Tile has been very good for our properties. The question now is LVT?

Ironically, she does not trust me doing a laminate job since I have never done one but she is fine if I do a tile job. If we go with something other than tiles, then she wants me to hire a professional to do the job. Yeah, that makes lots of sense. NOT! I am doing the job regardless.

Since the discounted cost of tiles is close to the LVT plank, which would you go for? Thoughts?
 

Last edited by WRDIY; 05-17-16 at 04:12 AM.
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Old 05-17-16, 04:55 AM
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The big vulnerability in a rental house is the subfloor. If you do tile you will need to put down something like Hardie Backer or cement board then thinset, tile and grout so there is a fair bit of labor involved. Many people try to go easy and put down vinyl over OSB or plywood which works reasonably well until it gets wet. I've had better luck when putting vinyl over Advantech which is a premium OSB product with improved water resistance. Better yet is putting vinyl over Hardie Backer or cement board. The big problem is getting the surface smooth enough so seams and screw heads don't show through the vinyl.
 
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Old 05-17-16, 05:11 AM
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Thanks for the reply Pilot Dane.

Sorry, forgot to mention that this is a one story house and the bare floor is now concrete. Therefore, I don't think I need Hardie Backer or cement board. If it was the second floor, then for sure I would leave it to the professional. I did a tile job once on the second floor and ran into issues that you mentioned. Not an easy job and I know my limitations.
 
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Old 05-17-16, 05:31 AM
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All of our units originally had sheet vinyl and carpet. As the vinyl would get damaged in units, we slowly found we could replace the vinyl with ceramic for less cost and the units where we've done this have a higher end feel to them.
 
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Old 05-17-16, 05:49 AM
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As long as your slab is flat and not showing signs of lots of movement (cracks), you should have little problem installing tile. Use thinset mixed from a powder and avoid those that are ready mixed. As a precaution, I would make sure I ordered at least one extra case of tile and park it in the attic crawl for safe keeping. Should a tile get chipped, you will be hard pressed to find matching tile a couple years down the road.
 
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Old 05-17-16, 08:26 AM
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Is your concrete sealed? If not I would put the tile directly on the concrete without intermediate layers like plywood or cement board. Your floor elevation might not work out perfectly but in the long run it will be better. You can also choose a thicker tile which will help some.
 
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Old 05-25-16, 01:06 AM
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I agree StickShift.

Originally Posted by czizzi
Use thinset mixed from a powder and avoid those that are ready mixed.
Like always.

Originally Posted by czizzi
I would make sure I ordered at least one extra case of tile
Good idea!

Originally Posted by czizzi
Should a tile get chipped, you will be hard pressed to find matching tile a couple years down the road.
It happened recently and lesson learned!

Pilot Dane, I believe it is not. Doing tiles on the ground floor is not difficult. Doing tiles on the second floor and above is difficult. I still have not gotten the hang of it for second floors since my tiles pops up after a year. I put thinset on the plywood floor and then lay the cement board on top of the thinset and then screw them down. Tiles still pop up after a year. Anyway, that is a different topic since this one is for the ground floor.
 
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Old 05-25-16, 02:38 AM
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It appears you may not be using the right thinset, incorrect notched trowel, or your subflooring is woefully inadequate in support. Can you fill us in on what you used and what the framing and subflooring is made up of?
 
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Old 05-25-16, 09:59 PM
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Hi Chandler,

The subfloor is plywood and if I remember correctly, it is about 3/4 of an inch. It was either you, PJMax or Czizzi showed me how to measure the thickness by drilling a hole into the plywood and stick a nail into the hole (upside down) and measure the nail's depth. I think it was you when it comes to the floor stuff since I always find PJMax as the AC and appliance guru.

The tiles are porcelain (12 x 12). I used a trowel (1/4 x 1/4 x 1/4).

I troweled mortar Type S (between the plywood floor and the cement boards) and this could be the reason as I should have used thinset here:
Spec Mix 94 lb. Type S Masonry Mortar-0179594000 - The Home Depot

If I remember correctly, I used this exact cement board:
James Hardie HardieBacker 3 ft. x 5 ft. x 1/4 in. Cement Backerboard-220022 - The Home Depot

I used these screws every 6-8 inches (the green type):
Backer-On #10 x 1-5/8 in. Zinc-Plated Steel Flat-Head Square Cement Board Screws (600-Pack)-23415 - The Home Depot

I used this impact driver to drive those screws in:
http://www.lowes.com/pd_234058-70-PC...uctId=50102360

I used this knife to score:
QEP Cement and Backerboard Scoring Knife with 3 Carbide Tip Design-10015 - The Home Depot

Does the color (gray or white) matters? I used this thinset (between the tiles and the cement boards):
Custom Building Products VersaBond Gray 50 lb. Fortified Thin-Set Mortar-MTSG50 - The Home Depot

I used these for spacers:
Shop TAVY 100-Pack 1-in W x 1-in L 1/16-in Green Plastic Tile Spacers at Lowes.com

I don't remember the grout and grout sealer

And to be specific, only 2-3 tiles have popped up. It is the grout that is popping out, more than the tiles.

Ever since I switched to the Lowe's thinset (TEC), I noticed the tiles have a much better bond than the Home Depot (VersaBond). The three tiles no longers pops up. Grout still do.

Same materials applied to the ground floor and no problem at all. Only second floor on plywood.
 

Last edited by WRDIY; 05-25-16 at 10:14 PM.
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Old 05-26-16, 02:51 AM
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I would not have recommended type S mortar as a substrate for the hardiebacker. I use thinset, not that it would make a difference, but it could have cracked. So you aren't having problems with tile release, just grout release? How dry or wet is your grout when you apply it? Too wet or too dry and it could be problematic. Did you get your grout at the box store? Was it Mapei or Customblend? Lowes or HD?

I had the exact same thing happen on an install a year or so ago. One area near the end of the install kept releasing the grout. I had my guys even remove the tile so I could see what they had applied it to. Absolutely textbook installation, mixture, application. Only after questioning them did I find out that they were running low on grout and bought a small box of the same color. They had been using out of a bag and run out. Turns out we had a bad batch of grout in the small box.

After fixing the floor to where it would be stable, I tested the grout in my shop and was easily able to replicate the failure more than once. Live and learn.
 
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Old 05-26-16, 03:18 AM
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You know your stuff Chandler.

Originally Posted by Chandler
I would not have recommended type S mortar as a substrate for the hardiebacker. I use thinset, not that it would make a difference, but it could have cracked.
Absolutely! I was stupid and cheap. I used the remaining bag that the plumber used to make the mortar bed when he laid in the tub. Mortar is cheap. Only about $6 a bag. I should have just tossed out. But with the lack of knowledge during that time, I was thinking, mortar and thinset - mud is mud right? Nope!

Originally Posted by Chandler
So you aren't having problems with tile release, just grout release?
Tile popped up was a problem but that has been corrected when I switched to the thinset from Lowes.

Originally Posted by Chandler
Did you get your grout at the box store? Was it Mapei or Customblend? Lowes or HD?
That is right, it is Customblend from Home Depot. The second batch that I mixed recently was at the right texture, similar to the ground floor. It is still breaking up.

I agree with you that the first batch was maybe too thin. However, I really think the mistake is from the S mortar as you have suggested, "
it could have cracked", moving the cement boards and tiles. For the most part, it has been fine with the exception of those three tile areas.

My wife is more agitated from it and it is a reminder that she uses when I want to DIY. Only until recently, I have redeemed myself with a tile job on the ground floor. That one was done beautifully for the weekend warriors' standards, maybe not for the professional.

I have a few questions Chandler:
  • Does the color (white or gray) of the thinset matter?
  • How clean does the floor have to be before I apply thinset? Does it have to be spanking clean with no dust? I have removed carpet and there are still some paddings stuck to the adhesive. I have removed most of the paddings but the adhesive is still there.
  • When I did a tile job on the ground floor in the past, I laid the tile on the fresh thinset. I never applied pressure on the tile after it gets placed, concerning that it would not level out correctly. Should I tap on top of the tile a little bit? One trick that I learned from a tile guy is to wet the tile before laying it down, for better bond.
 
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Old 05-26-16, 03:50 AM
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1. White is usually used when installing marble or other lighter tiles. As far as quality it does not matter.
2. Floor needs to be clean. All the boogers need to be scraped up, and I usually sweep and mop the floor to ensure I get all the dust away. As far as trace amounts of the adhesive, small, thin amounts won't matter much.
3. Larger tile can use back buttering for a better adhesion. Don't forget, the larger your tile, the heavier they are and the more thinset they will displace. Yes, you should put a little pressure on the tile to seat it in the thinset. This will also give you a place to run your level across in all directions to ensure good edge abutment and a level floor throughout, and adjust them accordingly.

You know your stuff Chandler.
No, I learn well from my experiences and other's advice.
 
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Old 05-26-16, 03:56 AM
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Thank you for your replies and detail information on this Chandler!
 
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Old 05-26-16, 06:04 AM
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Your grout cracking is a sign of movement in the subfloor or deflection outside the allowable specs for the job. I've had shrinking problems on one job but outright cracked and falling out grout is the install, not the product. 3/4" subfloor is the minimum spec over a good joists system. I have settled on all my installs having 1 1/4" worth of subfloor before beginning the tile process. For 3/4" properly installed over sufficient joists, Ditra can be used to minimize movement.
 
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Old 05-26-16, 11:25 AM
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I agree Czizzi. In this case, I think it is the usage of the old S mortar bag. S mortar is not as fine of a substance as thinset.
 
 

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